§ 2.58 p.m.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the statement attributed to Mrs. Norma Levy that she purchased shares in the avionics industry on the advice of Mr. Lambton has been noted and what steps have been taken to ascertain whether such advice was given by Mr. Lambton and if it was, whether it was related to information which became available to him in his capacity as Under-Secretary of State for the Royal Air Force.
§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON)My Lords, the statement referred to by the noble Lord has been noted. When Lord Lambton saw the story in the Press he immediately volunteered the information that the only investment advice he could have given to Mrs. Levy related to a company which is not an avionics company. The company has no centrally negotiated contracts with the Royal Air Force—that is, contracts over £5,000 in value; nor did Lord Lambton have official dealings of any kind with it.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, before I put down my Question on the Order Paper I 1706 consulted Lord Lambton, and the information that he gave me was that in no circumstances would he have recommended shares in the avionics industry to anyone. But he did recollect discussing with this lady the question of investment in certain companies. He was not of a mind to be precise about it. Since that time, this morning, in fact, he has telephoned me—
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD WINDLESHAM)My Lords, I think that the noble Lord should put his remarks in the form of a supplementary question.
§ LORD WIGGI beg your Lordships' pardon. Is the Minister aware that Lord Lambton left a message on the Notice Board for me this morning and, in addition, telephoned me saying that the company about which he recollected giving advice would be Hepworth Ceramics and that the statements I am now making and bringing to the attention of noble Lords I make with Lord Lambton's authority. Is the noble Lord aware that it is not wholly satisfactory that Lord Lambton should be left to volunteer a statement?—because, surely, when the statement was observed in the Press and it was repeated throughout the continent of Europe, he had the responsibility to ensure that no leakage of information had been made in the way that was described in the original statement by this lady.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, if there are any implications of security in Mrs. Levy's story, this is a matter for the Security Commission.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, the noble Lord has slightly missed the point. It is not only a question of security. Security, as the noble Lord must apprehend, arises if it related to a contract concerned with the purchase of armaments or equipment for the Royal Air Force. On the other hand—
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, is the Minister aware that there is a question of propriety for the Government as to how far a Minister in a Government should discuss investment policies with people of this standing?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I have no reason to doubt Lord Lambton's story. If the implication of the question is that there has been some impropriety on Lord Lambton's part, all I would say is that he is no longer a member of the Government; nor indeed is he a Member of the House of Commons, and there does not really seem much point in pursuing the matter.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, would it not be true to say that any statement made by Mrs. Norma Levy would be extremely suspect, because she has even brought prostitution into disrepute?
THE EARL OF ARRANMy Lords, are the Government aware that many people in this country are becoming sick and tired of these continuing witch hunts; and that in view of the statement that has been made by Her Majesty's Government, that no major question of security is involved, such questions amount to personal persecution, which is not in keeping with our spirit of fair play or our way of life?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I think it would be true to say that if there is any matter of security involved here, it would be much better to leave it to the Security Commission who have been asked to look into it.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that on the question of persecution I consulted Lord Lambton on two occasions; that he gave me authority to make the statements; and he made no charges of persecution? Is the noble Lord aware that in an interview with representatives from the United States he said that there had been no invasion of his privacy? Having dismissed that one, is the noble Lord aware that there is another factor, which does not arise from the fact that Lord Lambton is not now a Member of the Administration or a Member of the House of Commons? He was a Minister, and the question arises as to how far it is proper for Ministers of any Administration to have discussions of this kind. It cannot be dismissed because the word of a lady cannot be taken, because on this occasion she is shown to have spoken at least part of the truth.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I think it is quite impossible for Her Majesty's Government to control the con- 1708 versations of all Members of the Administration. The rules under which Ministers are asked to operate are rules of advice, and if the Minister himself does not follow those rules, then I cannot see what Her Majesty's Government can do—except when improper use has been made of Government information; and I have no reason to suppose that it was on this occasion—other than to take the necessary steps.
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in the other place we always understood that it was a strictly observed rule that noble Lords did not criticise the activities of Members of another place in their capacity as Members of another place?—and these activities are alleged to have occurred when Lord Lambton was a Member of another place; and, indeed, was a Minister. Is it not deplorable that a Question of this kind should be pursued in this House? Would we not be equally upset if Members of another place were to criticise the conduct of Members of your Lordships' House? Would it not be better therefore to drop the whole matter?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, it seems to me that, since Lord Lambton is no longer a Minister and is no longer a Member of the other place, there really is not much object in pursuing this question. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, will take the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and let it stay there.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, I am sorry, but I am not prepared to take the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, on this matter; I would rather be guided by my own judgement.
§ LORD CHORLEYMy Lords, would it be in order for me to ask the Leader of the House whether it is in order for me to move that we proceed to the next business?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, this is a difficult issue, and it is a matter of considerable public interest. We have listened to what the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, has had to say. As a Member of your Lordships' House, he is quite entitled to raise any matter. He has pressed this matter in, I think, three or four supplementary questions. If he felt it 1709 necessary to return to it by putting down another Question to my noble friend the Secretary of State for Defence on another occasion, of course that is his right; but for the House as a whole I think it might be better that we should move on to other business.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I am quite prepared to accept that advice on one condition, namely—
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the noble Lord should put his point in the form of a question, perhaps rather briefly.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that at no time have I made any imputation against Lord Lambton? I consulted Lord Lambton. Lord Lambton consulted me. There is no question of my getting involved—I am sure the noble Lord will see this—with another place, because Lord Lambton is not now a Member of another place. What is involved here is the responsibility of the Government, in general, and the Minister of Defence, in particular, in the handling of this matter. I am not satisfied. I make myself perfectly clear—
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, is the Minister aware that I am perfectly in order and I shall continue, or cease to be a Member of this place if I am going to be gagged by some obscure Back-Bencher who does not like what I have to say?
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, would the noble Lord—
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, at that point I am quite prepared to leave the matter and take the noble Lord's advice.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I would ask the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, if he would, to look again at the answers 1710 I have given. I have made no imputation against him or his motives in any of the answers I have given.
§ LORD CARRINGTONIf he is not satisfied with my conduct and does not think the Security Commission will investigate the matter thoroughly, then by all means let him put down another Question—and I have an idea that I might be able to defend myself.