ARMED SERVICES RECRUITMENT (Hansard, 19 June 1973)

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON)
My Lords, a downward trend in recruiting to the Services was evident during the latter part of 1972–73, and this has continued. We foresaw that raising the school leaving age would have a significant effect on the Services, who have to recruit large numbers of young men. The very good recruiting we have achieved over the last two or three years has also reduced the size of the pool. These factors chiefly affect the Army because it has to recruit the largest numbers; the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force also face problems, but recruiting for these two Services remains adequate.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his Answer. Is it not remarkable that in spite of conditions in the Services, the pay and amenities proving much more attractive, and expensive advertising in Press organs, we are failing to get the numbers of recruits that are required? May I ask the noble Lord whether it would not be better, in order to attract young people, to appeal not on the ground of joining an attractive Service but rather of giving a service? If he himself, or perhaps the Prime Minister, went on television and stated the international facts relating to defence, particularly the fact that the Soviet Union with East Germany have over 100 combat divisions, that the War 1210 saw Pact have another 60 divisions, and that the Soviet have now developed a natutical submarine with a missile that can travel 4,000 miles, could not an appeal be made to young men in the country on rather different lines?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, the noble Lord will not find me disagreeing with anything he has said in his supplementary question. I should like, if I may, to think about his suggestion and see what we can do on those lines. I agree with him that just recently recruiting has been very disappointing. One cannot put it down to any one single reason. I think however it was partly owing to pay, which the noble Lord will have noticed we have remedied, in so far as it is possible under Stage 2 of the Government's policy; partly because in regard to the Army Northern Ireland has had some effect, not among serving soldiers so much but among parents, who may have discouraged their sons from going into the Army because of service in Northern Ireland; and partly because of the rate at which unemployment has come down. I think that those together have added up to make a fairly bad patch at the moment in recruiting. But one cannot jump to conclusions at this particular time. I am watching the matter very carefully, and I will consider the point the noble Lord has made.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, may I put a further point to the noble Lord? He is aware that because of my own experience in these matters I would recognise that recruitment oscillates from time to time, owing to a variety of causes, most of which are outwith our control. But are not the international circumstances and complications exceptional at the present time? Therefore, is it not desirable to make a very strong appeal, as I think the noble Lord is anxious to do, on rather different lines, more modern lines, in order to boost up recruitment?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, as I say, I will certainly look at that suggestion. I agree with the noble Lord that at a time when détente is in the air it is very difficult to keep up recruiting and to put across the need for recruiting in quite the same way as when the dangers are more apparent. But I agree with the noble Lord's analysis.

§ LORD ORR-EWING
My Lords, would my noble friend not reconsider whether those young people who wish to join the Services, with all the challenge that that implies, should if they desire, have the choice of taking their last year of education in the Junior Service Establishments rather than continuing at school?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, it would be idle for me to deny that that would be attractive so far as I, as Secretary of State for Defence, am concerned; but there are rather considerable difficulties in the way, not least that of finance. I am still trying to think of ways in which we might to some extent offset the raising of the school leaving age and enable more people to come into the Services.

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he would not agree that it is when détente is in the air and we are engaged in negotiations with the Eastern European countries that it is most important that we should keep up our own guard and ensure that our own defences are not weakened? May I ask him a specific question about recruiting and the effect upon it of Northern Ireland? Can he say what effect Northern Ireland, or other factors, for that matter, have had on internal recruiting; that is to say, on the rate of re-engagement or re-enlistment?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, here again I very much agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, has said. I think that it is imperative at this moment that we should keep up our defence effort. There is no question that just because of these recruiting figures we shall not be able to do so, and it is the Government's determination that we shall. As the noble Lord will know, it is very difficult to make an exact assessment of the effect of Northern Ireland on re-engagement and recruiting. I think that it has less effect on those who are in the Army than on those who are likely to come in, because of their parents. Of course it does have some effect on those in the Army because of wives and fiancées, but I think that its biggest effect is on parents who do not encourage their boys to come into the Army.

§ LORD SHACKLETON
My Lords, in view of these amiable exchanges, would the noble Lord recall that shortly after he came into office he attributed the improvement in recruiting to the arrival of a Government that believed in defence? Does he now draw the contrary conclusion?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, I hate to think what would have happened if the noble Lord's Party had remained in office. Not only were they a disincentive to recruitment but I never really thought that they believed much in defence.

§ LORD SHACKLETON
My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord, who knows us perfectly well on this side and our interest in defence, would feel like withdrawing his last remark about our being not interested in defence?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, I will withdraw it in so far as the noble Lord himself is concerned.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, in spite of the desire of all of us to promote peace throughout the world, we are realistic enough to know that in order to safeguard our security we must have a measure of defence? May I ask one final question: whether the noble Lord would direct his attention to what is a hobby-horse of mine, and one to which I have directed his attention on several occasions—boosting up and expanding the auxiliary forces?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, the noble Lord and I have had this exchange over a number of years. It really is all a question of priorities and of expenditure, and of how best the limited amount of money which any Government allots to defence can be spent. When I became Secretary of State for Defence three years ago the first thing that I did was to announce an expansion of the Territorial Army. This has been successful, and they have nearly reached their target. When their target has been reached I think that we ought to look at it again, but we ought not to make any commitment now.

§ LORD WYNNE-JONES
My Lords, when the noble Lord is considering 1213 methods of dealing with this problem, will he bear in mind with regard to one suggestion that has been made the fact that the Ministry of Defence is not yet a sub-Department of the Ministry of Education?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, I sometimes wonder whether that is not rather a pity—but the other way round.

§ LORD PARGITER
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether, having regard to the fact that over a long period of time low recruitment has been associated with periods of good employment, something could be done to avoid this particular cycle and to get rid of the old tag that "unemployment is the best recruiting sergeant"?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, I really think that that has not always been true. It is very difficult to get the facts about that. I think perhaps it is more true on this occasion than it has been in the past. Certainly I do not think that the Services would wish to recruit from those who are unemployed and who go into the Services only because they can get no other jobs. I think that the Army is a fine career in itself, and those who go into it know it.

§ LORD BURNTWOOD
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he has really studied the psychology of the attitude of young people about recruitment into the Army? For instance, are the regulations regarding personal appearance brought up to date? Has he observed that young people grow their hair very long, a habit which has been copied by some young officers in rather expensive cavalry units?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, we do of course study this aspect very carefully, as the noble Lord will realise. I am satisfied that the Services—and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Shackle-ton, would agree with this from his experience—have really moved with the times as regards young people. It would be a mistake to suppose that a certain standard of discipline and dress is not necessary in the Services, but I think that we have just about got the right balance.