HL Deb 19 June 1973 vol 343 cc1214-6

2.48 p.m.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made in the talks on mutual balanced force reductions.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, I have little to add to what my noble friend the Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs said to the House on May 22. Following the first plenary meeting on May 14, delegations have been informally discussing the broad agenda, place and date for the negotiations themselves. We hope that the business of the talks will be completed soon.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess is it not true that they have been discussing the preparations for an agenda for several months, and have only reached the stage of deciding to have an agenda? Can he inform your Lordships' House what proposals Her Majesty's Government intend to place before the Conference?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, I understand that on the problems that have been discussed—and indeed these discussions have been going on for quite a time—reasonable progress has been made, and that there are not many questions now to be settled. Therefore we hope that these talks will be completed soon and, to enable the Conference proper to take place, one would hope before the end of the year.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, the noble Marquess has not answered the second part of my question: what proposals do Her Majesty's Government intend to put before the Conference? Perhaps he will reply at a later stage, because I want to ask him whether the Government will exercise the utmost caution in dealing with the subjects that come before this Conference, particularly the proposal to reduce our forces, having regard to the fact that our margin is much narrower than that of a possible aggressor.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, I entirely accept the noble Lord's last point, that of course the disparity between the Warsaw Pact countries and ourselves is such as to favour the Warsaw Pact. Therefore, this is something which the British Government will certainly take into very serious account in dealing with these negotiations.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, the noble Marquess still refuses to answer my question. What proposals do Her Majesty's Government intend to put before the Conference? Presumably, the Government have been thinking about this question. Or have they no proposals to put before the Conference? Or have Her Majesty's Government made up their minds that, because of our phenomenal inferiority, we must stand firm and not agree to any reduction at all in our forces?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, I would not go so far as that, because this is to be a Conference to discuss force reductions. What the Conference is at present trying to decide is its agenda, the time of its meeting and such matters as that. I am hopeful that this stage of the proceedings will be over before very long.

LORD ORR-EWING

My Lords, will my noble friend perhaps point out to the U.S.S.R. that the Free World might move towards this Conference with greater confidence if the U.S.S.R. did not continue to double its military manpower, and double its military expenditure on more and more devastating armaments, at the same time as it is talking peace.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, I certainly take note of what my noble friend has said and will pass it on to my noble friend.

LORD CHALFONT

My Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess whether, in preparing the negotiation position of Her Majesty's Government in this Conference, the Government will bear in mind what my noble friend has said about the disparity between our forces, and whether they will resist any suggestion that there should be equal percentage cuts on both sides which would thereby increase the relative weakness of the West towards the Soviet Union? Secondly, will the noble Marquess comment on what seems to me to be apparent double standards in the approach of the Soviet Union to the European Security Conference, out of which they would presumably hope to get something, and the Conference on Mutual and Balanced Force Reductions, on which they appear to be dragging their feet very obviously, in spite of the fact that originally these two Conferences were supposed to be linked?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, I certainly take note of what the noble Lord has said in view of his very great interest and experience in these matters. I think the best thing I can do is to pass on to my noble friend what he has said.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, is the noble Marquess aware that it is quite impossible to effect a balance between what is inferior and what is superior, unless what is superior agrees to a very substantial reduction without any reduction on the part of the inferior?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

Certainly, my Lords. That point is very well understood by Her Majesty's Government.