§ 2.46 p.m.
§ LORD ORR-EWINGMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government on what dates they started and finished consulting local authorities about thermal insulation standards for new dwellings; and when they expect to circulate recommendations.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the advice which my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment hopes to issue on this subject has now been further revised and amended but has now reached the stage of preparation where the local authority associations can be consulted. These consultations will begin before the end of this month.
§ LORD ORR-EWINGMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that reply, may I ask whether he would agree that the United Kingdom building regulations at present laid down are between two and three times as wasteful of heat through loss through the ceilings and walls as the Continental standards? Therefore, in view of the need to conserve our energy in this country, is there not a great need of urgency to line up with Continental standards and lay down improved regulations?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, between the cold of West Germany and the heat of Southern Italy there are vast extremes of climate. I am aware that thermal insulation will conserve heat and can be a good investment, but we do not want to do anything mandatory in this way; we want to have consultations and get councils to act on their own.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, is the noble Lord saying that if this matter is dealt with at all it will be dealt with by way of by-laws or regulations drawn up by the local authorities?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONNo, my Lords, I was suggesting that it would be dealt with by way of advice.
§ VISCOUNT HANWORTHMy Lords, in view of the fact that this matter was considered urgent in January, would the Minister say why it has taken so long to produce this document for consultation? Would he further say whether the document is similar to the information given in the Department of the Environment's construction bulletin?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I will deal with the second question first. That was a document which would have come out last January after the noble Viscount asked his Question of me. It has been superseded by the later advice that we have been taking within the Department, as I said to my noble friend, which dealt particularly with condensation and thermal comfort. The document the noble Viscount was referring to did not cover this point.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I wonder whether I could ask for a little more information. I asked the noble Lord whether local authorities would be dealing with this matter by way of regulation. I used the word, "by-laws". I understood him to say, "No, by way of advice." May I ask the noble Lord what will be the value of advice unless local authorities have some power to enforce it?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I think the noble Lord knows already that over 30 per cent. of local authorities go above the minimum statutory requirements of thermal insulation. Our advice to have a bit more insulation 633 might be given rather more strongly than before. It is advice that we seek to give, and we wish to go along by agreement.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, before the noble Lord gives up on this matter, may I ask whether he would again consider the urgency to which his noble friend drew attention, and perhaps come back with a little more positive information and a little more positive urgency?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I did say that consultations will begin before the end of this month. I regard that as treating the matter as fairly urgent.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, can the noble Lord say how many people have died from hypothermia during his long long years of consultation?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I think that is another question.