HL Deb 06 February 1973 vol 338 cc967-70

2.54 p.m.

LORD LEATHERLAND

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Qeustion which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they recall the Question asked in this House on June 15 last about the steep rise that had taken place in meat prices; whether they also recall that the Ministerial spokesman replied "It is a fact that over the past few weeks prices have risen, but it appears that the price rise is now past its peak"; and whether that hopeful statement has proved to be an accurate one.

EARL FERRERS

Yes, my Lords. The statement proved to be an accurate description of the way in which cattle prices moved over the summer.

LORD LEATHERLAND

I thank the noble Earl more sincerely than ever for admitting that the Government were at fault. Is the noble Earl not aware that there are many different price lists issued by different organisations but that they all show a considerable increase in meat prices since June 15 when the original Question was asked? Is he aware, for example, that a leading supermarket has put up the price of topside, which was 54p per lb. on that date, to 60p per lb. last week? Is he further aware that housewives who have switched from hindquarter joints to the less succulent forequarter joints find that the price of those joints has risen in company with that of the hindquarter joints? Is he further aware that following the Government freeze of November 3 wholesale beef prices rose by 40 per cent. and wholesale lamb and mutton prices by 50 per cent.? Is he still further aware—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Oh!

LORD LEATHERLAND

Ah! my Lords, but this is a multipartite question. Is the noble Earl further aware that Ministers are threatening the British housewife with considerable increases in ham and bacon prices and that the Ministry have given orders that prices are to be raised for fresh fish, fish fingers, beefburgers, and many other food products? Does the noble Earl not think that it is about time that the Government took action to halt this rise in food prices "at a stroke"?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, I think it would be fair to say that the Government are aware of all the points raised by the noble Lord. I would answer the first supplementary question by saying that in fact cattle auction prices at the time he put his original supplementary question were then at their highest point since June 11. They took a dip and did not again reach the level at which they were when the noble Lord tabled his original Question until the autumn. The Government are aware of the rise in prices of all foodstuffs. When the noble Lord says that the prices of the cheaper joints have gone up, this is perfectly true. This, unfortunately, is a question of the law of supply and demand. When the prices of one part of the animal go too high, people then turn to eat the less expensive parts of the animal; and that results in those prices going up. The real problem, as the noble Lord knows, is that there is a world shortage of meat.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, would the noble Earl confirm that beef is now rationed by price and that its consumption per head in this country to-day is lower than in the last year of rationing?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, meat is not rationed in any respect. If the noble Lord says that if you cannot afford a thing you cannot buy it. I suppose it could be said that everything in the world is rationed by price in the last analysis. When he says that we are eating less meat, less beef, than we were during the war and up to the end of rationing, I would tell him that the amount of beef now consumed is, in fact, almost the same as in 1954. In fact, total meat consumption per head is now one-third higher than it was in 1953.

LORD LEATHERLAND

My Lords, would the noble Earl particularise instead of generalising on that point? Is it not a fact that the National Food Survey in the third quarter of last year showed that the consumption of beef was 13 per cent. less than 12 months earlier, that the consumption of lamb and mutton was 18 per cent. less and that of bacon and ham also 18 per cent. less?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, that may be so when you use the noble Lord's statistics. The point I was trying to make was in contradiction to that made by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, who insinuated that we are now eating less beef, less meat as a whole, than previously. In fact that is not so. We are eating as much meat, as much beef, as before—in fact we are eating more meat.

LORD LEATHERLAND

My Lords, the National Food Survey, was carried out under the auspices of the Government. Is the noble Earl suggesting that the Government issued false figures so that I could quote them?

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, will the noble Earl clarify his original Answer? He was asked a Question about meat prices. If I heard him correctly, he answered in terms of cattle prices. Housewives do not buy cattle in shops; they buy beef. Will he also clarify a second point? He was clearly understood by my noble friend to claim that the Government forecast had been inaccurate. Some on those Benches heard it as "inaccurate". On these Benches it was heard as "accurate". Will the noble Earl make that quite clear?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, I said "accurate". It was an accurate statement of the way in which prices moved over the summer.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, was the answer "cattle prices"?

EARL FERRERS

Yes, my Lords, it was cattle prices. But of course the noble Baroness will realise that meat stems from cattle, and therefore meat prices come from cattle prices.

LORD LEATHERLAND

My Lords, if the word used by the noble Earl was "accurate" and not "inaccurate" as I thought, may I take back all the nice things I have been saying about him? Because I have to ask whether he is aware that his statement on June 15 really was inaccurate. The price of topside beef then was 54p. He said the peak had been passed. Since then it has risen; to 60p per lb. last week, and in the intervening weeks to 62p, 63p and 65p?

LORD CONESFORD

My Lords, is a "Ministerial spokesman" the same animal that used to be called a "Minister"?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, I am not quite sure whether he is. I suppose he is an animal, but I am not quite certain which category he would come into. With regard to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, I apologise if I spoke indistinctly. I should be only too willing for the noble Lord to take back all the nice things he said about me, provided that he undertook to take back the nasty things as well.

BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE

My Lords, following the supplementary question from the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, should we not get a very hefty "joint" off the present Minister?

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, as the position appears to be deteriorating, can the noble Earl say what plans the Government have to ensure that the poorest in the country will have a fair share when the time comes?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, the Government are concerned to see that the poorest people in the country are properly looked after. In this respect they have introduced the family income supplement to help the poorest people and increased the old-age pension, and it is one reason why they decided to review it annually instead of biennially.