§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what they are intending to do, in the possible necessity of having to introduce petrol rationing, to assist rural communities which have no food or other shops within many miles, and where there is no adequate public transport, and in some cases no public transport at all.
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (BARONESS YOUNG)My Lords, the supplementary allowance is designed to cater for cases of hardship. In order further to assist rural communities my right honourable friend has exercised his power under the Fuel and Electricity (Control) Act to authorise owners of cars and private minibuses to accept contributions toward expenses from regular passengers without complying with public service vehicle licensing requirements. He is prepared to exercise further powers to assist public transport operators as necessary.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply, but does it quite meet the case? In very remote areas there is very little traffic going to the nearest town except private cars, and would not my noble friend agree that it is not always possible for lifts to be given because a very small population is involved and people want to travel at different times? Would my noble friend ask her right honourable friend to look into this question for remote areas, because the situation is not quite so easy as the Answer has suggested?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I will certainly undertake to pass on the observations of my noble friend Lord Derwent to my right honourable friend the Minister for Transport Industries. I can say that, as a long-stop, he has powers to direct transport under Emergency Regulations where cases of the community's life or health are at stake.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend to ascertain whether it is not possible, when there is a spare seat alongside the driver of a postal vehicle, to make that place available to one of the people whom my noble friend had in mind when asking this Question?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I will certainly draw that point to the attention of my right honourable friend.
§ LORD MAYBRAY-KINGMy Lords, while supporting the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, in his plea for people in rural areas, may I ask the noble Baroness whether, among the special categories when petrol rationing comes in, particular attention may be paid to the need of disabled drivers?
§ BARONESS YOUNGYes, my Lords, I can give an undertaking on that point.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, is the Minister aware that an arrangement was arrived at between the Post Office and the Minister of Transport under the previous Government that in rural areas where the postal vans are able to accommodate people living in those areas where there was no regular bus service they would be at liberty to convey those people to various places?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I have already given an assurance to my noble friend Lord Inglewood that I will pass on his observations about the carrying of passengers in postal vans to my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, now that petrol coupons are in the hands of most people who may desire to use them, is the noble Baroness able to say when the Government will issue instructions as to how these coupons, and particularly the special coupons, are to be used and also how the respective units are to be allocated to vehicles of varying horse power? In other words, when will 332 the Government be in a position to make a complete statement as to how the units in the coupon book will be used?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I think this is outside the terms of the Question, which was quite specifically directed at problems in rural areas.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, will my noble friend also bring to the attention of her right honourable friend that in special circumstances there are school buses which sometimes do not run fully occupied and that at the moment members of the general public cannot take a seat in them? Will she ask her right honourable friend also to look into this matter?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I will certainly give an assurance on that point, and I can add to my previous Answer and say that one of the matters that will be looked into is the use throughout the emergency of buses which are used only on a seasonal basis.
§ LORD CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, is not the question one of whether there will be supplementary coupons for people with cars who do not, live close to villages? Speaking as a person who lives two miles from the nearest shops, this is obviously of importance to people in rural areas. Also, can the noble Baroness give some assurance as to how Members of your Lordships' House who live far from railway stations (and in any case the trains do not always run now) will be able to get to your Lordships' House when petrol rationing comes in?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I can say that if petrol rationing should come in all vehicles will be eligible for supplementary allowance if no other form of transport is available.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, while appreciating the reply made by the noble Baroness to my supplementary question, that it was probably a little wide of the original Question, may I ask her to draw the attention of the Secretary of State to the desirability of some early announcement being made as to how these units will be used? Is the noble Baroness aware that the uncertainty attaching to this matter is leading to a great deal of the senseless filling up of 333 petrol tanks that is going on at the present time?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I really do not feel that I can comment on what must still be a hypothetical situation.
THE DUKE of ATHOLLMy Lords, will my noble friend treat those Londoners who are sufficiently unfortunate to live on the Bakerloo Line and who depend upon it for transport, in the same way as those living in remote rural areas?