HL Deb 19 December 1973 vol 348 cc328-30

2.37 p.m.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what estimates are available on the number of persons owning or driving motor vehicles who have failed to obtain a licence; and what action is taken to ensure that any person driving a motor vehicle is in possession of a licence.

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

My Lords, I understand that the noble Lord has in mind the offence of driving without a driving licence. The official figures show that for Great Britain in 1972 there were known to the police 66,067 cases of driving without a driving licence and 16,529 cases of driving while disqualified. Enforcement of these offences is a matter for individual chief officers of police.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply and the information conveyed to your Lordships' House. But does it not indicate that quite a substantial number of drivers of vehicles fail to take out a licence and thus defraud the Inland Revenue, apart from their immoral behaviour? As this is not a controversial issue, I would be content if the noble Lord would make further inquiries and ascertain whether the Department could deal with this matter: track down the culprits and ensure that they are paying to the Inland Revenue the contribution that is required.

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

Yes, my Lords, though I am sure the police are doing all they can. It is not so much a matter of money for the Exchequer. The important matter is the fact that people who are not suitable are driving on the roads.

LORD GARNSWORTHY

My Lords, the noble Lord gave the figures 66,000 and 16,000. Can he say in how many cases those concerned were prosecuted?

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

My Lords, I am afraid I cannot answer that point without another Question being tabled. But, as I said, it is up to the police and I should have thought in most cases those concerned would have been prosecuted.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, if a Question was put down which the noble Lord was willing to answer, would he also be prepared to say what is the average fine the courts have applied where there has been a conviction?

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

My Lords, the Government are always willing to answer any Question which they are able to.

LORD SOMERS

My Lords, could the noble Lord say whether there is any limit to the time during which one may hold a provisional licence without passing the test?

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

No, my Lords.

LORD HAWKE

My Lords, is not the really serious offence that the driver is uninsured and therefore any damage he does to the general public will not be properly recompensed?

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

My Lords, I think I have made it clear on many occasions that nowadays, even if a man is driving while uninsured, and even though that man may be uncovered, the compulsory part of his insurance—the third party risk to persons—is covered by the Motor Insurers' Bureau.