HL Deb 03 April 1973 vol 341 cc141-6

2.43 p.m.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is the intention of the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to resist the efforts of the French to increase farm prices, and whether the verbatim script of the recent discussion at Brussels will be made available to Members of the House.

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, it is not the practice of the Community to reveal verbatim reports of Council meetings, but my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture made clear in his statement last week that it is important to avoid courses of action which could increase prices. That remains his view.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that according to the Daily Telegraph and other reputable newspapers. Mr. Beresford, the President of the Food Manufacturers' Federation has forecast that by the end of this year the price of butter will have increased by 24 per cent., the price of sugar will have increased by 18 per cent., the price of meat will have increased by 12 per cent., the price of fish will have increased by 10 per cent. and the price of dried eggs will have increased by 8 per cent? In those dreadful and horrific circumstances, is it not advisable that his right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food should inform the French at the earliest possible moment that we did not enter the E.E.C. in order to satisfy the financial avarice and ambitions of the French farmers?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, I am aware of what was said yesterday which was, in general, about the retail price of manufactured foods in Britain. I know what the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, feels about this matter, but we have accepted the Common Agricultural Policy and we intend to play our part in developing it.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, with very great respect to the noble Earl, whose integrity is not in question, that is not satisfactory. The noble Earl's honesty is transparent and even more transparent than that of most Ministers—not in this place, but in the other place. Is he aware that the public are now being forced to accept a situation that was never contemplated when we debated whether we should enter the E.E.C., and that all the prospects of a reduction in prices are now vanishing into thin air? What are the Government going to do about it?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, I think that that is really a different point from the Question which the noble Lord has down on the Order Paper, which in fact refers to the proposed increase in common agricultural prices. The purpose of this proposal is to overcome monetary problems due to the realignment of currencies, and in the view of Her Majesty's Government it is preferable to seek solutions which are not essentially alterations of price levels. It is that which has caused the proposed increase to which the noble Lord's original Question referred.

LORD HOY

My Lords, I found it difficult to understand part of the noble Earl's Answer, when he said that it is not customary to disclose figures which have been discussed at the E.E.C. Is it not a fact that the noble Earl himself disclosed the figure of 2.76 per cent. which had been discussed at the E.E.C., when he was trying to support the Price Review which he was then presenting?

EARL FERRERS

No, my Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, asked for a verbatim report of a discussion of the Council of Ministers. It is not the practice to issue verbatim reports of discussions of the Council of Ministers, as it is not of meetings of Cabinet Ministers. But what Ministers say outside the Council chamber is of course up to them.

LORD HOY

My Lords, did the noble Earl not say in the course of his Statement that the figure of 2.76 per cent. was discussed at the Council of Ministers in the E.E.C.?

EARL FERRERS

Yes, my Lords, that is quite right. It was.

LORD DAVIES OF LEEK

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the House was delighted when he said, in answer to my noble friend's Question, that the Government would support the maintenance of reasonable and reduced prices? Is he further aware that at the conference in Berlin, which Scottish and other farmers attended a few weeks ago, the Mansholt plan envisaged decreasing farming land inside the Community by 5 million hectares? Is he also aware that the French went further and envisaged decreasing farming land by 11 million hectares, which is one-third of the entire farming land of France? If this damned foolish policy is followed, prices in the Common Market will get out of control.

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, it is in order to try to bring our influence to bear on the future Common Agricultural Policy that my right honourable friend takes the view that he does take.

LORD DAVIES OF LEEK

My Lords, will the noble Earl and his noble friends, who have done a lot for England in the past, please resist his worship of the mere price at the expense of health, prosperity and cheap food for the masses of hungry people still in the world?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, I accept the point of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, and I shall certainly see to it that it is brought to my right honourable friend's attention. We are anxious to see that there is adequate food produced under a reasonable system of prices, and it is our intention as full Members of the Community to play our part in developing the agricultural policy in the best possible way.

LORD WIGG

My Lords, is it not a fact that, having joined the Common Market, the Government have lost all control over the price situation in this country?

EARL FERRERS

No, my Lords.

LORD BURNTWOOD

My Lords, when the noble Earl reads the report of his answer to the supplementary question put by my noble friend Lord Shinwell, will he be kind enough to ask the Treasury officials who helped him draft the background to that answer to do better in future, because it was almost incomprehensible to most of us?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, I dare say it was my supplementary reply which was incomprehensible, as opposed to the original reply, in which case the fault was mine.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl how, if prices go up as is forecast—even if they do not go up so high as forecast—it will be possible for the Government to impose restraint on wage demands? If they have to agree that some wage demands are inevitable in the circumstances, shall we not be back again into the inflationary situation?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, I think that that really is going considerably wider than the original Question on the Order Paper. If the noble Lord wishes to put down a Question dealing specifically with that matter I shall be obliged to answer it. But I would say this to the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell: that anyone is entitled to make a forecast, and the forecast to which he refers was made by. I think, a gentleman called Mr. Beresford.

LORD NUNBURNHOLME

My Lords, may I ask the Government how they propose to limit the increase in prices of agricultural goods when there is a world demand for meat and a shortage of cereals? Can the Government go to Brussels and discuss this question so that we may get a stable price, even if increased, for a matter of, say, two to five years?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, that is the type of question which my right honourable friend obviously has in mind, and it is in order to ensure a suitable Common Agricultural Policy that my right honourable friend wants to do all that he can to bring his influence, as well as those of all the other countries, to bear. But, my Lords, this is a question of negotiation. We are members of a Community and we wish to negotiate. It is my right honourable friend's desire to put his point of view forward as strongly as any others.

LORD SLATER

My Lords, am I right in assuming from the answers that the noble Earl has given to this particular Question that it is not customary for there to be given to any Minister a verbatim report of a meeting of the Council of Ministers of the European Economic Community on the policies that have been pursued, even in regard to the agricultural policy? This seems rather out of date in view of our practice here, where we have become so accustomed to Parliamentary control and Parliamentary understanding and where Ministers are responsible for giving Answers to Questions that are tabled. Surely we have a right to know what our Minister really says and what he is seeking to do to further the agricultural policy which has been enunciated so much to-day in reply to the questions which have been asked?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, the Question tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, asked about a verbatim report of a meeting of the Council of Ministers. I said that it was customary not to provide a verbatim report of such meetings of Councils of Ministers, which in the Common Market are equivalent to Cabinet meetings in this country. In the same way as it is not customary to produce verbatim reports of Cabinet meetings, so it is also customary not to produce reports of this nature.