THE COUNTESS OF LOUDOUNMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that the proposed East Grinstead by-pass will mean the closure of three special schools, one of which, Peredur, is unique.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the route of this road. for which East Sussex County Council are both the highway and the planning authority, has not yet been fixed. As the noble Countess knows from a letter from my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, there will be opportunities for representations to be made and for a public inquiry to be held.
THE COUNTESS OF LOUDOUNMy Lords, is the Minister aware that at a meeting of the East Sussex County Council on February 21 last a resolution was passed which stated that the Peredur route was the only one to be submitted to the Department? At the same meeting, may I ask on what grounds was the amendment agreed, restricting planning on the alternate routes and on the other side of the by-pass turned down?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I am aware that the Council has adopted a resolution, but I must repeat that it has not yet been submitted to Her Majesty's Government.
§ BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOODMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether or not he is aware that the three special schools, which are going to be completely 140 ruined if this road is allowed, are unique and of enormous value in regard to handicapped children, with which the Government are deeply concerned?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, with the greatest respect, I must repeat what I said. Your Lordships are all galloping against an animal that does not yet exist.
§ BARONESS BACONMy Lords, is the Ministers aware that the noble Countess, Lady Loudoun, would not have raised this matter unless there were some prospect of these schools going out of existence, and can he at least give an assurance that whatever plan is adopted by the County Council and approved by Her Majesty's Government will not mean the end of special schools, which are so scarce on the ground?
VISCOUNT GAGEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that as a member of the East Sussex County Council can testify to the fact that there are about five alternative schemes? The Minister is quite right in saying that they will all be submitted to an inquiry in due course. I forget exactly when it is, but it is a very major operation.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for pointing that out. In reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Bacon, I would repeat that it is almost inconceivable that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State would agree to anything which would involve schools being destroyed. This is so far removed from the concept of Her Majesty's Government's idea of government that it is impossible.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, might I ask the noble Lord, who is galloping in all directions, whether he would withdraw his quite monstrous reflection on Lady Elliot, who certainly is a fast mover, but I have never known her to gallop against an animal that did not exist?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I think, on reflection, I must accept the rebuke of the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, do the Government fully realise the amount of human suffering that would be inflicted 141 on the 70 mentally retarded children involved if the intended route were agreed upon, and would they revise their present views and decide on one of four alternative routes?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, if the East Sussex County Council, as the planning authority, puts this scheme up to the Department, if there is a substantial deviation from the original line, that will be a reason for an inquiry. Equally, any owner, lessee or tenant of any bit of land involved in purchase has a right to object, in which case an inquiry has to be held. The time for all this talk will be at the inquiry which will be held in public. All representations may then be made. The Department is well aware of what is happening, and it is inconceivable that my right honourable friend will not insist, if it is not already wished for by the East Sussex County Council, on that happening.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, as a former Member for that part of the world, I would support the Answer given from the Front Bench. We are prematurely jumping at conclusions. I do not think there is any danger of these three schools being closed.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I think my noble friend Lady Emmet has indeed said something which is completely true. We are fighting against something that does not yet exist. Public inquiries are for the airing of points of this kind.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, does not the noble Lord feel flattered that so many noble Lords and Ladies in this House feel that his influence with the Government is so great that they are trying to bring pressure to bear on him now?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, all noble Lords in this Government are delighted to have noble Ladies bringing influence to bear against them.