§ 2.41 p.m.
§ LORD AUCKLANDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans they have in mind for recruiting more British born nurses to our hospitals (and particularly psychiatric hospitals) and whether current trends in recruitment are showing signs of increase in this direction.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE)My Lords, my Department is continuing its background support to the recruitment effort of hospital authorities by means of publicity campaigns in the national Press and cinemas, the production of posters, brochures and films and the provision of exhibition material. Some of this activity is specifically directed towards recruitment for psychiatric nursing. The total number of nursing and midwifery staff in National Health Service hospitals in England and Wales has been rising steadily and showed an increase of over 17,000 in terms of whole-time equivalents in the year ended September 30, 1972. The total in psychiatric hospitals increased by over 1,000 in that year.
§ LORD AUCKLANDMy Lords, may I thank my noble friend for his Answer, which is satisfactory as far as it goes, but may I put to him two brief supplementary questions? First, is he satisfied that there is enough liaison between the Department of Education and Science and his Ministry in getting more chief nursing officers to go and talk to schools and parties of school leavers to visit these hospitals? Secondly, is he satisfied that the hospital building programme is sufficient to encourage recruitment of more British nurses? Finally, will he accept that this Question in no way detracts from the great tribute which we all pay to our nurses from the Commonwealth and abroad?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, the answer to the first of the noble Lord's supplementary question is, Yes, it is the 6 normal practice for nursing officers to visit schools and to be in close touch with the careers officers at schools, and for children at schools to spend some time at, or at least visit, their local hospitals. The building programme is never sufficient, but progress is being made, and, as the noble Lord knows, it is a long-term policy. On the third point my reply is yes, I would willingly join with my noble friend in paying a sincere tribute to those nurses from Commonwealth countries who serve in the hospitals.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, would I be right in assuming that "British" includes Scotland as well as England and Wales, and in those circumstances could my noble friend tell me what the situation is in regard to Scotland?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I am very loath to speak on behalf of Scotland, but I certainly agree that the situation in Scotland is, so far as I know, also satisfactory.
§ LORD PEDDIEMy Lords, the noble Lord has quoted figures relating to recruitment. I wonder whether he is in a position to give the House the ratio of nurses to patients to-day and, say, a number of years ago, particularly in the psychiatric hospitals?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I should not like to venture to give figures without notice. I know that in the psychiatric field, which is the more difficult one, on the whole we are getting down to a reasonable ratio. I think it is in the nature of about 1:4 in general.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, is the Minister aware that in West Sussex some years ago we realised that it was the catching of girls at 16 to 18, when they were normally leaving school and perhaps going into a shop, that was important, and that we there started a hostel for the training of probationers from 16 to 18 attached to our secondary schools, and this has proved most successful?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I was not aware of that in the case of West Sussex. I am aware that it does happen in many cases, and it is most valuable.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that if a State registered nurse were paid as much as a docker there would be no shortage of nurses anywhere, psychiatric or otherwise?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, as the noble Baroness knows, this is a matter which is decided in the Whitley Council.
§ LORD BURNTWOODMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware of the apparent increasing dependence in some of the larger hospitals on agency nurses, and can he say whether the Government consider this to be a desirable development?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I am aware that this is the case, especially in London and some of the other big cities. It is not desirable, in the sense that agency nurses do not normally make a career of nursing. In certain cases it is inevitable where there is a shortage of nurses, but we are doing our utmost to make sure that we get as many new recruits for career nursing as we can.
§ LORD REIGATEMy Lords, arising out of the last question, has my noble friend put it to the Whitley Council, who, as he quite rightly says, have to do with these things, that there ought to be a special London rate, which would eliminate some of the difficulties that arise in the big cities?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I will have a look at that question by my noble friend. It is not one which I had prepared myself for as a supplementary on this particular Question. I will certainly consider it.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, can the noble Lord explain why only 6 per cent. of the total of 17,000 nurses recruited last year were recruited for psychiatric hospitals, and can he say what the Government intend to do to make this particular branch of nursing, where the shortage is extremely severe, a little more attractive?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, the reason is, as the noble Lord appreciates, that psychiatric nursing does not appeal to quite so many people as general nursing. But in furtherance of the whole campaign to recruit more nurses we are helping with the production of brochures, material, advertisements and so on, to 8 show that psychiatric nursing can be attractive and most rewarding.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this Question, tabled by his noble friend, opens a wide field so far as young people are concerned? As a past member of the management committee of a mental hospital with over 3,000 patients, even my experience made me realise that efforts to get these young people leaving school to take up this form of nursing within the psychiatric field is of great importance and is delicate in more ways than one. I sincerely hope that as the approach is made to these young people, everything will be done to allay their fears in regard to the type of service that they will be expected to undertake.
§ LORD ABERDAREYes, my Lords. I am grateful to the noble Lord for what he has said. It is true that a lot of responsibility falls on these young nurses, but, in general, they certainly play their part with great devotion.