§ LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government 304 when the designated main route from London to the South-West (A.303, etc.) will have its proposed dual-carriageway system completed.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment intends to complete the comprehensive improvement of the strategic route between London and Penzance by the early 1980s.
§ LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask him whether he is aware that East and West of Stourton the congestion is absolutely impossible at this time of year, and that with the proliferation of large vehicles it is practically impossible to move, and very dangerous because people become impatient and try to overtake? Would there be any opportunity or chance of the Government's making a rule whereby on non-dual carriageways these large vehicles are forced to keep at least 100 yards apart so as to avoid accidents?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I take the noble Lord's point about my knowing the route in that part of the world. As I have said before in this House, my right honourable friend does not intend to bring in legislation about the spacing of heavy lorries. He thinks that this is a matter best left to the discretion and common sense of the drivers concerned. However, as he has indicated, in the case of larger lorries, with which we may or may not be involved in the future, he is considering designating special roads for these vehicles.
§ LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, could the noble Lord or the Government take one further step towards easing the situation? Would they ask the county councils concerned, of Wiltshire, Somerset and Devon, when they are carrying out small road improvements to make dual carriageways, instead of just one lane each way, so saving the extra time and expense of chopping up the road again to make a dual carriageway in a couple of years' time?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, as your Lordships will know, my right honourable friend has in this very month made announcements that 305 over £350 million worth of improvements are in preparation or construction for Somerset, Devon and Cornwall, and where the traffic flow warrants it the noble Lord's suggestion is likely to be met.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, does the noble Lord's answer mean that, so far as this highway is concerned, there will be no improvement for a period of ten years?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I do not call £350 million worth of improvements in the counties of Somerset, Devon and Cornwall, nothing.
§ VISCOUNT THURSOMy Lords, was one to understand the noble Lord to say that the Government are considering designating special roads for large lorries? Can the noble Lord tell me why the Government do not make some attempt to encourage the goods carried by them to go on the railways which are already designated for them?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, that question is going rather wide of the Question on the Order Paper.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, did the noble Lord really mean in his earlier reply "designating special roads"; or did he intend to use the words "designating special lanes"?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I was answering a question of the noble Lord, Lord Clifford of Chudleigh, about whether lorries which caused congestion should be spaced apart. I said that where large lorries are concerned—and with the possibility of their becoming larger—my right honourable friend has announced that he is considering allowing them to go only on special roads which would be designated for that purpose.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, in the light of a supplementary question and of what the noble Lord has just said, may I ask whether we are to take it that his right honourable friend is contemplating a further increase in the permitted size of loads of vehicles?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I think the noble Lord is trying to twist my tail a little. He knows 306 that my right honourable friend has under consideration the possibility that we may have to increase the size of lorries if our European partners in the future wish us to. He is only planning for the future.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, does this mean that if we go into the Common Market we shall have to indulge in this additional expenditure of building special highways for Common Market lorries?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONNo, my Lords; we are building roads for our own flow of traffic, and if these lorries happen to come to our country they will be kept to roads which can cope with them.
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDMy Lords, does that answer mean that we are building these roads for our own traffic and that they will not be used by the Common Market traffic?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the Common Market traffic will use our roads just as our traffic will use the Common Market roads.
§ LORD SOMERSMy Lords, is not the idea that it is best to leave these regulations to the good sense of the drivers rather foolish when they have no good sense: and is this not rather an excuse for just doing nothing?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I do not accept the fact that heavy lorry drivers have no common sense. By and large I find them very good, and in any case education and example are what is needed.