COMMONS AMENDMENT (Hansard, 27 July 1972)

§ VISCOUNT ECCLES
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 2. We debated at some length the question of the disqualification of Members of Parliament to be members of the British Library Board. Several of your Lordships said in that debate that this was a matter for the other place. When the Bill was debated there in Committee, a free vote was taken and the clause disqualifying Members of Parliament was removed. But the Under-Secretary of State agreed to put down on Report stage an Amendment which would make clear that Members of Parliament could not become members of the Board if they received any remuneration. I beg to move.

§ BARONESS LEE OF ASHERIDGE
My Lords, we on this side of the House certainly agree with the Commons on the Amendment. I should like one point 1504 cleared up. If Members of the other place are to be appointed as part-time members of boards and should be called to meetings at a time when the House is not sitting and when they would not be entitled to use their travel vouchers, is it understood that a Member would be entitled to have any travelling or other expenses paid? I should like to be clear about that. It seems to me unfair that we should go to the extreme of asking a Member of the other place, not only to serve unpaid but also to be out of pocket in respect of travelling or other expenses.
This Amendment is good, so far as it goes, but I am still far from being convinced that it is right that we should have the anomalous situation of a Member of Parliament serving unpaid when other members of the board are being paid. I believe that we need not have got into this position if, instead of paying salaries to part-time members of boards, we paid expenses and an honorarium. There is no reason why the honorarium should not be generous; but I am not happy about the developing situation in which part-time members of boards, whether boards of this kind or boards in respect of museums, galleries, hospitals and other concerns, are paid a salary. Members are selected from among men, and occasionally women, who have long and distinguished records of service. Often they are asked to go abroad in an advisory capacity. I do not like the growth of the idea that at a certain time in one's career one starts gathering together part-time directorships and membership of boards. That could easily lead to certain abuses. We do not want to encourage it. I would rather that we kept to the very fine principle that we have in this country, of expecting people to do a certain amount of voluntary service. We shall not ask people to serve on these boards if they do not have a great deal of knowledge on the subject. Among their number may be distinguished professors or librarians who will be drawing a salary. Therefore I do not think we are doing a service to the Library. I want to see those voluntary part-time members playing a very important part. They will not only bring special knowledge from different parts of the country but they will also be representing the users.
1505 The Minister said during an earlier debate that in this new great adventure some original decisions might need to be modified. I hope we shall have an adequate number of part-time members so that they will be able to do their jobs as watchdogs and as representatives of users, as well as bringing in their own specialised knowledge. We accept this Amendment but, speaking for myself at least, I would rather there had been a different method of payment.

§ VISCOUNT ECCLES
My Lords, in answer to the noble Baroness's first question, the Amendment reads: Any member of the British Library Board in receipt of remuneration". To the best of my knowledge—and I admit I am not a lawyer—"remuneration" does not cover travelling expenses. That is to say, you can claim travelling expenses from wherever you are to the Board meetings, but "remuneration" certainly does exclude any form of allowance for the work which you are carrying on. I think we have to leave the matter there, because this was the word which the Commons wished to have inserted and they must have thought out exactly what it meant.
On the second point of the noble Baroness, I rather fear she is still under the misapprehension that she entertained at an earlier stage of the Bill. There is nothing to prevent the Secretary of State appointing part-time members who do not wish to receive any form of salary. Indeed, one may well suppose that there always will be men and women of that kind who will say, "I should like to do this as a piece of voluntary work"; but experience now shows that there are other men and women with exactly the qualities which you want to whom a small salary is really important. In order not to miss the aid of those people—and from the point of view of the Museum service that I knew I personally should be very sorry if we did—I am sure it is right to give the Secretary of State discretion to pay a part-time salary if he or she thinks it is necessary in order to persuade a person to serve. I hope that the House will accept the Amendment.