§ 3.28 p.m.
§ LORD STRABOLGIMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether there will be a free day at the Trustees' discretion if charges for admission to the national museums and galleries are introduced.
§ THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (VISCOUNT ECCLES)My Lords, I am discussing certain aspects of the scheme for charges with the National Gallery. If appropriate, I shall make a Statement when the discussions are concluded.
§ LORD STRABOLGIMy Lords, while thanking the noble Viscount for that reply, may I ask him whether he will consider granting a free day to the eight institutions who have asked for one, in view of the comparatively small sums of money involved, and the great cultural and educational advantages?
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESMy Lords, this is the subject of our discussions, and it is really a question of what is in the interest of the gallery and the public. When we have come to the end of our discussions I shall be glad to make a Statement.
§ BARONESS LEE OF ASHERIDGEMy Lords, is the Minister aware that in the last Parliament there was a clear line of demarcation between the responsibilities and duties of the political Minister and the Trustees of our museums and galleries? Does he think that the obloquy he has brought on his Prime Minister and his Government by threatening Trustees with financial sanctions if they do not accept his dictatorship is worth while?
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESMy Lords, the powers of the Trustees are what they have always been, and we are not discussing them here. We are discussing whether a certain element in a system of charges would or would not be good for this particular gallery. There is no question of a conflict of powers.
§ BARONESS LEE OF ASHERIDGEMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that I must disagree with him? Are we not undermining an extremely precious principle of the delegation of responsibilities from whatever may be the Government of the day or the particular Minister of the day in dealing with museums and galleries, if we do not respect the judgment and integrity of the distinguished men and women whom we appoint to run our museums and galleries?
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESMy Lords, the noble Baroness had better await the results of these discussions.
§ BARONESS WHITEMy Lords, would the Minister agree that, provided the galleries meet his target of the "miserable million", it is not his business how they meet it?
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESMy Lords, it is not a matter of whose business it is but of whether we can agree with the gallery what is in the best interests of the public.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, will the noble Lord seek to defer his decision about the free day as long as possible? In the meantime, will he allow the existing number of free days to continue?
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESMy Lords, that is another question.
LORD JANNERMy Lords, has not the noble Lord considered this position in detail? What do the Government think about this proposal? That is what is being asked.
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESMy Lords, I think I have given the Government's views on free days two or three times in the course of debates on charges. It would weary your Lordships if I repeated them now. Naturally, they are part of the discussions which are taking place.
§ LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEYMy Lords, the Minister said that he would make a Statement if it was appropriate. Does he not think in view of the general interest and publicity in this matter, that it would be appropriate to make a Statement after the end of his consultations? Is he aware of the words of Lord Melbourne: "God help the Minister who meddles with art"?
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESMy Lords, I am very aware of that admirable quotation from Lord Melbourne. I anticipate that we shall make a Statement, but I wish to have that agreed with the National Gallery and therefore I am not going to pledge myself at this moment.