§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the public interest and the large number of people affected, they will make a Statement on the proposed withdrawal of check-in facilities at the British Airways West London Terminal by the summer of 1973 prior to completion of the rail link with Heathrow; and whether they will indicate what action is proposed by the Government on this matter.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, my right honourable friend is very concerned that adequate facilities should be provided for passengers to and from London Airport, and this matter has been brought to the attention of the Chairmen of British European Airways and the British Airports Authority. However, the decision to close the check-in facilities at West London Air Terminal must necessarily lie within the responsibility of B.E.A.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, that gets us no further. Concerning the letter which was sent to me by B.E.A., of which the noble Earl and other noble Lords have copies, does he not agree that only one short sentence referred to the point I have in mind and that it is a complete waste of time to write lengthy letters on other matters? May I now ask he noble Lord whether it is correct that 1,389,943 passengers used the check-in facilities at Gloucester Road over the last 12 months? Does he consider that the needs of these passengers should be ignored completely when they alight at Heathrow with their lug- 350 gage? Is he really telling the House that he thinks there will be enough porters and trolleys to service all passengers coming from buses to the check-in point?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I saw a copy of the letter which the Chairman of B.E.A. sent to the noble Baroness, and I am bound to say that I did not think it was a waste of time; it explained exactly what was going to happen. In anticipation and apprehension of being roasted alive by the noble Baroness again on this subject, I asked B.E.A. whether I might come down and see the facilities and, as it were, have a dummy run through the Air Terminal and Heathrow. I asked whether I might bring the noble Baroness along hut, for reasons which I understood entirely, she could not come. Had she done so I think many of her fears would have been allayed. It is perfectly true that 1,389,943 passengers used the check-in facilities, but less than 60 per cent. of those people were travelling by B.E.A. The anticipated reorganisation is being done for the convenience of passengers as a whole as well as for the economic situation of B.E.A.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, may I put one other question to the Minister? Is he aware that had I gone to the airport with him he certainly would not have been satisfied? He was sidetracked from the main point, which has not been answered. Is it correct that to defer this unfortunate decision till 1976, when the rail link will be completed, would cost £600,000 per annum? Should not this be contrasted with the revenue that some 1,400,000 passengers would bring in taking a very low average fare of, say, £50? That comes to £70 million a year. Does not the Minister think that passengers bringing in that amount of revenue have at least a right to be considered?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, they have, and I agree that the saving is expected to be in the region of £600,000 a year. But the noble Baroness will, I know, appreciate that the facilities at West London Air Terminal will be more to the convenience of passengers in that they will have no further to walk and will negotiate only one floor as opposed to three.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, can the Minister tell us whether the impression of some passengers that many of the buses operating from the terminal at present are not full can be confirmed?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, at present buses leave for specific connections. A bus holds 50 people, and the average load is just over 40.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, when the new arrangements are in force at Heathrow, how much further will passengers have to walk with their luggage than they have to walk at present at the West London Terminal?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, when they alight from a taxi at West London Air Terminal they walk 20 paces to the check-in place. I measured it myself. At London Airport the distance from the roadside to the check-in place is also 20 paces.
§ LORD STRABOLGIMy Lords, under these new arrangements who will be responsible for luggage lost or stolen from the departure coach? Will it be the airline or the passenger?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, that is a question of detail about which I should prefer to write to the noble Lord. My guess is that if the luggage was carried in a B.E.A. coach it would be the responsibility of B.E.A.
§ THE EARL or LAUDERDALEMy Lords, on the question of baggage and porters, can the noble Lord confirm the impression of some acutely observant passengers that some porters tend to hide trolleys so that they get jobs and tips?
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, has it escaped your Lordships' notice that the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, I am sure with no ulterior motive, is evading the point at issue? Is he aware that I am not concerned with the Gloucester Road Air Terminal but with the depositing of baggage at Heathrow? Can he assure your Lordships' House that there will be sufficient porters and trolleys to take luggage to the check-in points?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the noble Baroness has made this point very 352 strongly on a number of occasions, and I have made it my responsibility to bring it to the attention of the Chairman of the British Airports Authority, who wrote and told me that more porters will be provided. The words he used were, "This can and will be done". This is their responsibility.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, this is not good enough, and if I do not pursue this we are going to lose it.
§ BARONESS BURTON or COVENTRYMy Lords, is the noble Earl telling the House that he really believes that passengers deposited from these buses with their luggage at Heathrow will have no problems about getting their luggage to the check-in point?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the noble Baroness asked me whether there would be sufficient porters and trolleys. I can only reply to the noble Baroness that, while I fully appreciate her feelings, this is not the concern of the Government, any more than is the providing of wheelbarrows at railway stations. This is the concern of the British Airports Authority, and we have had a written assurance from the Chairman that sufficient porters can and will be provided.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, my noble friend referred to twenty paces at Heathrow and the same distance of twenty paces at Cromwell Road. Can he confirm that there are no steps, and that the twenty paces at Heathrow will be entirely on the level?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the twenty paces at Heathrow will be on the level, as they will be at the West London Air Terminal, whereas at the moment passengers have to negotiate two flights of stairs.
§ EARL DE LA WARRMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend the Leader of the House whether we are beginning to abuse a little the purpose of Starred Questions, and whether it would be possible for the authorities who govern these things to come to some agreement with the object of limiting them?
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)My Lords, this is always a 353 matter of great difficulty in your Lordships' House. I think it is true to say that sometimes we do stray a little far. This problem is one that has exercised not only the usual channels but also the Procedure Committee. I have made it my responsibility, whenever I have thought it desirable, to intervene. I appreciate the concern of my noble friend, and I think it is one that is shared by most Members of your Lordships' House. But in all honesty, I must confess that, given the considerable public concern, not only in your Lordships' House but also in the Press, on this point, I did not feel that in the supplementaries on this Question there was an abuse of Parliamentary time.