§ 2.49 p.m.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the decision taken by NATO to increase defence expenditure by £400 million annually is being implemented and in what form.]
1065§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN)Yes, my Lords. The additional expenditure referred to is made up of increases in the Defence Budget provisions of Eurogroup countries for 1972 as compared with that for 1971. As such, it represents a very real improvement in military effectiveness, covering the whole range of defence activity, and all our European allies are contributing towards this figure.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, can the noble Lord say what proportion of this expenditure is being contributed by the United Kingdom, and how it compares with the contribution from other NATO countries? Can he say what proportion is being devoted to infrastructure? Can he also say whether any infrastructure is to be done for France, and whether the French Government are to make a contribution?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I am afraid that I should require Notice of the last part of the noble Lord's supplementary question. If I may, I will write to him on the point that he has raised. He will realise that I am not aware of the position at the moment. So far as the proportion of the British contribution is concerned, it is slightly misleading to say at the moment but the British increase at constant prices is in the region of 13 million dollars. This is at constant prices, because the actual announcement of the increased expenditure of the Eurogroup countries took place before the British estimates, which took into account the rise in cost of living and in prices, had been completed. Therefore, my Lords, it would be better (if I may put it in this way) if the noble Lord were to wait for the Estimates, which will be published quite soon, in order to get a true figure.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, is the noble Marquess aware that when the Estimates are published they relate only to the United Kingdom expenditure on defence, and it is a global figure? Although there are details attached to it, there is nothing related to the contribution for NATO defence. Can the noble Marquess say whether the contribution of the United Kingdom Government among the NATO countries is higher, or com- 1066 parable with the expenditure of those countries?
Finally, on the subject of infrastructure, when the noble Marquess writes to me on the subject—although I would prefer that everybody should be aware of the facts, and perhaps that could be arranged—will he explain why it is that France has received vast sums of money amounting to many millions of pounds for the purpose of infrastructure, which is not only for French defence but also the economy of France, and yet France has contracted out of NATO?
§ THE. MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I will undertake to pass on those remarks to my noble friend, and I am quite certain that the noble Lord will receive the detailed reply for which he is looking.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, I should like to ask my noble friend a short and simple question; namely, what part of the 13 million dollars is likely to be spent on the expansion or the restoration of our reserve forces, which used to be called the Territorial Army?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I should certainly require notice of that question.
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, while I have every sympathy with the point made by my noble friend about the proportion of British expenditure in comparison to that of the rest of NATO, can the noble Marquess tell us when we might expect the Report on the Defence Estimates, commonly known as the Defence White Paper, so that we may have a basis on which to argue this very important point?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, my understanding is that the White Paper will be produced in the very near future, although I am not certain of the precise date.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, with regard to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, may I ask whether the noble Marquess is aware that if one asks a question about NATO defence generally one is informed by the representative of Her Majesty's Government that that is a matter for NATO, and that we are not supposed to ask questions of that character, much less receive satisfactory answers?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, this is possibly a matter which the noble Lord will feel like raising when we have our debate on the Defence Estimates.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, while we are on this important point, may I ask the noble Marquess whether the£400 million increase annually in fact represents a£400 million increase or are other contributions in effect in real terms being scaled down? Is this a real figure or a presentational figure?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, it is not an annual increase. It is the increase between 1971 and 1972 and it does not take into account the increase in prices and the cost of living index. My understanding is that the real increase is something in the region of about half that sum.