§ 2.45 p.m.
§ LORD REIGATEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what were the numbers of administrative and clerical staff employed (a) by Regional Hospital Board headquarters in England and (b) by teaching hospitals and hospital management committees in 1967 and 1971 respectively.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE)My Lords, in terms of whole time equivalents, the number of administrative and clerical staff employed by regional hospital boards was 2,765 in September, 1967, and 3,981 in September, 1971. The comparable number for teaching hospital groups and hospital management committees was 41,724 in 1967 and 50,194 in 1971.
§ LORD REIGATEMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that his statistics vary slightly from mine, which were derived from his Department's own volume of Hospital Service staff statistics? Is he also aware that this represents about a 10 per cent. increase at Regional Board level, as compared with about 5 per cent. at hospital management committee level? 6 Does not this show signs of a substantial degree of centralisation? And if the proposals later to be debated are carried into force yet another tier of authority will be introduced.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I was not aware that my statistics differed from those of my noble friend, but I readily acknowledge that there was an increase of administrative and clerical staff at Regional Board level at an average rate of about 10½ per cent. a year. However, that is quite easily explained by the fact that it was at the Regional level that there was an expansion of various hospital services. Capital building, productivity schemes and development of new Regional supply organisations were mainly responsible for these increases.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, without wanting to denigrate the excellent service of the hospitals, may I ask the noble Lord whether these figures include technical people as well as clerical and administrative people, because the troika of Parkinson's Law is administrative, clerical and then technical. For instance, the number of architects has increased day by day in the hospitals. Do the technical people come into this?
§ LORD ABERDARENo, my Lords. These are the figures for secretarial, typing and machine operating grades and those defined by the Administrative and Clerical Staff Whitley Council as special grades—mainly management staff in the catering, domestic and laundry fields.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. It illustrates exactly the point I am trying to make. We have the opportunity now with this Bill of looking into—
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKHave we not—I thank noble Lords. Have we not now the opportunity to get a broom to sweep away unnecessary technical and administrative staff and really get down to the health-saving part of the Service?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I am sure that if the noble Lord listens to the debate this afternoon he will find that the new structure proposed by the Government will be well worth his praise and will meet his requirements.