§ 2.37 p.m.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what was the total expenditure incurred by the National Coal Board between the years 1961 and 1971 for the acquisition of ancillary undertakings; what was the return on capital at the last available date; and what is the present position of those undertakings.
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN)My Lords, 3 the National Coal Board have informed my right honourable friend that the amount spent on the acquisition of interests in ancillary undertakings from 1961 to March, 1972, was £43 million, of which some £23 million related to their North Sea activities. As to the return on capital and the present position of the undertakings concerned, I would suggest that in accordance with the usual practice the noble Lord himself asks the Board to supply any information that he would like to have to supplement what is published in the Board's Annual Report.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, regarding the last part of the noble Lord's Answer, may I ask whether he is aware that although it is not customary in Parliament, either in the other place or in your Lordships' House, to ask questions about the day-to-day administration one can ask questions on general policy and the acquisition of a number of ancillary industries? That is a matter of general policy with which we can deal by Questions in both Houses of Parliament and therefore there is no reason why I should go to the National Coal Board for the information. As regards the figures that the noble Lord has furnished, is it not the case that, apart from the North Sea gas and oil undertakings, the return on capital for the other ancillary industries is not only meagre but also that hardly any of the ancillary undertakings have "washed their faces"? In those circumstances, is it desirable that, in spite of the huge losses which are unfortunately, associated with the coal industry, the Coal Board should undertake the administration and ownership of other industries which entail further losses?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, as to policy, your Lordships will be interested to know that my honourable friend the Minister for Industry has been considering proposals put forward by the Board for the future of these activities and hopes to make a Statement in the near future. As to the second part of the noble Lord's supplementary question, if he will refer to pages 2 and 3 of Volume II of the Annual Report, he will see there a comparison of percentage returns on average Board investments for 4 1970 and 1971–72. For the convenience of your Lordships, may I just say that for joint enterprises this shows a profit of £1,808,000 on £16.6 million capital employed which is 10.9 per cent. for 1972.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that what he is doing now is furnishing me with the profits gained in 1970 and up to 1972? I have asked a Question about a period of ten years, from 1961 to 1971. May I put this question and be quite blunt about it? Is it not a fact that the Coal Board made an error of judgment in purchasing these ancillary undertakings (apart from North Sea coal and oil, which is purely speculative but from which we hope to derive a profit) and ought we not to be quite frank and realistic about it and admit that the Coal Board made a mistake?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, with respect, Lord Shinwell's supplementary question indicates how right he was when, in framing the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, he deprecated such questions and really almost made it impossible for questions of this kind to be answered. I suggest to the noble Lord that he is here producing an argument rather than asking for information. I think that this is a matter for debate rather than something to be answered at Question Time.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, is there not a certain inconsistency in what the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, is saying? First he says that he cannot give certain figures. Then he gives figures, contrary to what he said earlier, and now he quotes a statement by my noble friend Lord Shinwell which I thought related to the day-to-day operations rather than an examination of past events. If it is a matter which is suitable for debate, surely it is a matter which is suitable for a Question.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I was replying to a supplementary question that the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, asked about policy. I answered that question in the terms in which I did because I thought it would be helpful to your Lordships. As to the other point, if the noble Lord will look at his Question, I think he will see that he is asking what was the return on capital at the last available date. I should have thought that 5 as the return on capital is related to average earnings over the year in question it can relate only to that year.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that great concern has been shown throughout the whole of the coalfields in the United Kingdom due to the policy of Her Majesty's Government in selling up those profitable parts attached to or under the control of the National Coal Board? Have the Government considered this aspect which is detrimental to the operation of the Coal Board, which was the prerogative of the previous coal owners when they had control of the industry?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I am aware of the first part of the noble Lord's question. As to the second part, I suggest that the noble Lord should wait until we get to the Statement.