§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether Miss Vasanti and Miss Shakuntala Paleja were transferred from Harmondsworth Detention Centre to Holloway Prison on July 20, because they refused to sign application forms for admission to India; and under what authority the Chief Immigration Officer on duty at Harmondsworth on that morning gave this to the Misses Paleja as the reason for their transfer.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS)My Lords, Miss Vasanti and Miss Shankutla Paleja were transferred to Holloway Prison because their behaviour was disturbing other people at Harmondsworth. Their unwillingness to sign Indian visa application forms had nothing to do with their transfer and I cannot trace that they were ever given reason to suppose that it had.
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that both of these ladies have signed statements to the effect that they received threats of this nature before they were transferred to Holloway? Is it not a fact that this is a unique case and that no other detainees have been put into an ordinary women's prison like Holloway? Is it not also a fact that the Misses Paleja are debarred from reentering India because they were both ordered to quit that country and that that is the reason why they came here?
§ LORD AVEBURYThey have.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, if what the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, says is correct, perhaps he will be good enough to show me the documents later. They may or may not be unique; the point is that the Misses Paleja were removed because they were making a nuisance of themselves at Harmonds-worth in such circumstances as to make it impossible for the authorities properly to keep them there any longer. The reason why they cannot go back to India at the moment is that there are no visas for them, and they must have visas to get into India. That is the situation at present.
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that both of these ladies tried to get an extension of their Indian visas while they were in that country but were refused extensions and that that is why they came here? For how much longer does the noble Viscount intend to keep these ladies in Holloway? Is he aware that they both have university degrees——
§ LORD AVEBURY—and could therefore make a useful contribution to the economy of this country if they were allowed to remain here and take jobs?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, there are queue jumpers—good, bad and indifferent. I am prepared to concede that personally these two ladies may be good. They are, nevertheless, queue jumpers.
§ LORD GRIDLEYMy Lords, bearing in mind that the immigration officers already face considerable difficulties, may I ask my noble friend to agree that all the personnel of the Department involved in this work should receive the support of Her Majesty's Government in the difficult tasks which face them?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that comment; the immigration officers need our full support. I suggest with the greatest respect to the House that while Her Majesty's Government may not get support in a particular matter, I am entitled to ask, and I think the Government are entitled to receive, a 1269 certain amount of discretion on the part of those who wish to ask Questions.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSThere is a good deal going on at the moment, and I suggest that this is an occasion when we could do the best for everyone concerned, including the Asians in various parts of the world, by saying as little as possible.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, what does the noble Viscount mean by "discretion" on the part of those who wish to ask Questions? Whether or not he likes this particular Question, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, is perfectly entitled to ask it. I hope there will be no suggestion that noble Lords cannot use their judgment in these matters.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, should have taken me so amiss. I had no such intention in mind. What I was commenting on was not the propriety of the Question—it is beyond doubt correct, and of course any noble Lord can ask any Question. I was seeking to put a gloss on my noble friend Lord Gridley's comment on the present situation; and I was asking for the indulgence of the House in the asking of supplementaries.
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, I utterly repudiate the noble Viscount's implied criticism and I shall put down any Questions on the Order Paper I choose to table. In any case, if the noble Viscount was referring to the present situation in Uganda, then it might help if I were to remind him that these two ladies were born in Tanzania.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, while appreciating the difficulties that the Government face in this matter, and while not wishing to make the situation more difficult, may I ask the noble Viscount to agree that his comment that visas have been refused to these two women to enter India emphasises the importance of the constructive suggestion that I have made—namely, that there should be discussions with India and the East African countries, 1270 including Tanzania, from which these women come, in order that a solution may be reached to this difficult problem?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, and I remember that he did make that point the other day. I also recall the endorsement it received from, among others, the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. I am glad to say that intensive diplomatic activities are going on at the moment with all the countries the noble Lord mentioned. We have therefore done our best to follow his most valuable advice.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, before the noble Viscount leaves this matter, may I ask him to clear up one point? The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asks in his Question:
…under what authority the Chief Immigration Officer on duty at Harmondsworth…gave this to the Misses Paleja as the reason for their transferto Holloway, and then,…refused to sign application forms for admission to India…" I understood the noble Viscount to say that they were transferred because they had been such a nuisance at Harmondsworth. Will he clear this up and say what was the real reason for the transfer?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, the real reason for the transfer had nothing to do with their application forms for visas at all. It was because the authorities at Harmondsworth found that their behaviour there was seriously disturbing not only the régime but the other inhabitants at Harmondsworth, and therefore they considered it right that they should be transferred away.