§ 11.8 a.m.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what information they have about the reported intention of the Rhodesian régime to remove 100 children of the Tangwena tribe from their families on their ancestral lands and place them in institutions.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)My Lords, I understand that the Tangwena children in question have been living away from their families on Nyafaru Farm, which adjoins the ancestral land of the Tangwena tribe, since the first eviction of the tribe in 1969. The Rhodesian authorities appear to have now removed these children from the farm, and placed them in a camp run by the Department of Social Welfare near Salisbury.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, I should like to thank the noble Baroness for that reply. Is the noble Baroness aware that I put down this Question largely because I am one of the few people who actually stayed in Nyafaru with the Tangwena people? I therefore know how specially close is the link between the mothers and their children, since they watched their huts and crops being burned down and saw their fathers being driven into the mountains by the police with helicopters and dogs. I particularly wanted to stress that aspect. May I ask the noble Baroness to request further information because, in fact, the children had not been separated from their people? May I ask the noble Baroness to check on this matter? The fathers are of course in the mountains, but the children were with their mothers at Nyafaru. Would the noble Baroness also check whether, even under the Smith régime's laws, there is any legal authority for removing these children from their mothers at this particular time?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, my information was, as given in my Answer, that the children were not living with their families. As the noble Baroness will realise, it is very difficult to get exact information. This particular action was, I understand, taken under the Land Tenure Act 1969, under which the area in question was designated European land, and before that under the Land Apportionment Act. What we regret so very much about the failure of the settlement proposals is that_ under them there would have been a Commission on Racial Discrimination to examine this kind of situation.
LORD BARN BYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether she is aware that this group of African individuals are squatters on the North-East boundary of Rhodesia on land that was barren and practically unoccupied? They are well-known in Rhodesia as cattle rustlers, and it is believed that they have been active in assisting the entry of terrorists from across the border into Rhodesia.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIENo, my Lords, I was not aware of those facts. But even if that were so, I would regret the separation of children from their families.
§ LORD BURNTWOODMy Lords, while welcoming the observations of the noble Baroness on this matter, may I ask whether she is aware that many of us in all parts of the House would not wish to be mealy-mouthed about this business? It conjures up visions of what happened at Lidice and Oradour under the Nazis.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIENevertheless, my Lords, we have to recognise that we have little internal power in Rhodesia. This particular matter was personally raised during the negotiations by the noble Lord, Lord Goodman.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, while recognising that it is difficult to have direct conversations with the Rhodesians, may I ask the noble Baroness whether Her Majesty's Government have made any representations to the United Nations ad hoc Corn- 616 mission on Human Rights, which is sitting now in London, and which has discussed this very question?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIENo. my Lords; we have not. We did of course make representations earlier on, as I described, to the Rhodesian authorities themselves. We felt this might have had more effect.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, while it is obvious that the Minister can have no jurisdiction over anything of this character in Rhodesia, does it not show what advantage would come from the establishment of more regular contact?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, so long as the illegal régime is in existence and no settlement proposals have been carried out, I am afraid we cannot have official permanent representation.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I press the Question which has been put by the noble Baroness? In view of the fact that the United Nations' Commission on Human Rights which is dealing with wrongs in Southern Africa is now in London, is it not possible for Her Majesty's Government to make some representations to it on this matter?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I will consider that suggestion, but I know that the Commission on Human Rights deals, not so much with individuals as with persistent violations of human rights on a large scale. Nevertheless, I will look into that point.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, may I further ask the noble Baroness, who we know has great sympathy about this matter, whether she could perhaps explain to her noble friend and also to the Rhodesian Government that people cannot be described as "squatters" when they have lived in the same place for nearly 300 years?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I understand that this is a dispute which has been going on for four years, which is why we were able to make the personal representations during the settlement proposals.