§ 2.50 p.m.
§ LORD STRABOLGIMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Trustees of the National Gallery and Tate Gallery are free to decline to impose charges on members of the public wishing to view these collections.]
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESMy Lords, the instruments establishing the national museums do not set out in detail how the Trustees should manage the museums. For example, they are free to close the museums every morning of the week, and to do many other things to which any Government would object. In this sense they are free not to charge. But the Government consider that charging for entrance should be included in the financial arrangements between themselves and the museums. The museums would regard it as highly undesirable if matters of management of this kind had to be spelt out in legislation.
§ LORD STRABOLGIMy Lords, if the Trustees are free to impose charges and are responsible for the legality of any action to charge in the absence of legislation, are they not also free to decline to charge? Would not the Paymaster General agree that not even he may have it both ways?
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESMy Lords, the Trustees—and having been one myself, I have had experience—are free to do a whole range of things. The Act simply says that they are there to manage the museum. But since they get all the money from the Government they always agree with the Government over the general picture, and this is exactly what is happening now. We are saying that we know they need more money and that one of the thing, that should be done to make that money more easy to obtain is to charge; and that is what we arc going to do.
LORD-STRABOLGIMy Lords, I am sorry to press the noble Viscount on this, but may I ask him to be good enough to answer the Question on the Order Paper?
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESMy Lords, I have answered the Question very clearly. I said that in the legal sense they are free because charging, except in the case of 424 one or two of these museums, is not in the Statutory Instrument which set them up. There are many other things of a similar nature which are not in that Instrument but which are discussed between them and the Government in the ordinary course of arranging their annual estimates, and this will be one.
§ LORD ANNANMy Lords, the noble Viscount knows that I am opposed to museum charges, but would he not agree that the decision by the Trustees of museums and galleries whether or not to impose charges is almost directly analogous to the decision of the governing bodies of universities to charge the differential fee of £250 for overseas students imposed by the late Government? Would he not also agree that it is a matter for the Trustees, as it was for the governing bodies of the universities, to judge whether a refusal to comply with the Government's wishes does more harm to their institutions than to comply with them?
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESMy Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord. That is the common sense of the matter.
§ BARONESS LEE OF ASHERIDGEBlackmail!
§ LORD GARDINERMy Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount what legal right the Trustees of the National Gallery have to impose charges, not for the benefit of the Gallery but for the relief of the general body of taxpayers? Also, may I ask whether I am right in thinking that this is something they have never done before—I suggest because it would have been illegal?
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESMy Lords, if the law does not prevent them from doing it and they come to an arrangement with the Government to do it, surely that is perfectly legal.
§ LORD FOOTMy Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount whether the Answer to the original Question is, "Yes "?
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESYes, my Lords, the Galleries are legally free to do this and to do a very great number of other things which in some cases the Trustees put forward to the Government, and in some cases it is the other way round.