§ 3.6 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF NORWICHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have considered the proposal to establish a Select Committee of the House of Lords on Ocean Space Development which was made during the debate on a World Ocean Régime on November 25 last year.]
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)Yes, my Lords. Following your Lordships' debate on November 25 last the Government have given most careful consideration to the proposal to set up a Select Committee of your Lordships' House on the Sea Bed. They have, however, come to the conclusion that this is not a subject on which they could recommend the establishment of such a Committee.
THE LORD BISHOP OF NORWICHMy Lords, while thanking the noble Earl the Leader of the House for his Answer to that Question and for the courtesy of informing me beforehand what that Answer would be, may I ask a further question of which I have given notice to the noble Earl? In view of the great complexity of the issues involved in legislation on ocean space, and the anxieties expressed in the debate on November 25 last over the Government's policy, would not the Lord Privy Seal consider it desirable to set up some other body to seek wider advice on the inter-connected research, legal, economic, pollution and national security aspects involved, to see 1480 in perspective what is at stake, both for our own nation and for mankind, and to report?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I should like to thank the right reverend Prelate for his courteous remarks and also for having given me prior notice of his supplementary question. However, I am afraid that again I am not going to be able to give him as positive a reply as he would like. As he knows, there is a tremendous amount going on at the present time in this field—if that is the right word to use in connection with the ocean. There is at present the United Nations Sea Bed Committee meeting in Geneva; there is the United Nations Law of the Sea Conference which is due to take place in 1973; there is the Stockholm Conference on the Human Environment due to take place in 1972 which will be dealing, inter alia, with questions of marine and oceanic pollution; and, indeed, there is a specifically marine pollution conference which, under the auspices of IMCO—the Inter-Governmental Maritime Consultative Organisation—is likely to take place in 1973.
With so much activity in progress on the international front, to which the United Kingdom is making a contribution—and I have no hesitation in claiming that it is a constructive contribution—I feel that there will be plenty of opportunity for ventilating in public these important issues and a very real risk that an additional Committee in this country would duplicate unnecessarily the work which is going on. It is because of that danger of duplication that I am not able to return as positive an answer as the right reverend Prelate would like to have to his supplementary question. But I can assure him that we should be very glad to take advice from him and from any other experts in your Lordships' House—and there are many in this field—who could help us in our consideration of these matters.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl this question, without going into whether this is a subject for a Select Committee? Would the noble Earl not agree that, irrespective of the complexion of Governments, Departments and officials never like Select Committees? Secondly, would the noble Earl 1481 not agree that there are special Committees in the House of Commons and therefore there is no reason at all why your Lordships' House should not have similar Committees? Would the noble Earl look again at the point that I made in regard to a Select Committee on the Colonies? There are also other subjects in regard to which I think a Committee would be of great use, not only to the Government but also, in the end, to officials.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I think I can say "Yes" to the noble Lord's first two questions without casting any reflection on Departments, and I should be glad to look again at the specific suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, about a Committee on Dependent Territories—as I think it might be more appropriately termed. There is a great body of experience in your Lordships' House which could possibly be mobilised in this and other spheres, and personally I am sympathetically inclined; but we must hit on the right Committee.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, would it help the noble Earl, in view of what he has said, if we could join with him and put pressure where it is needed?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I am always grateful for pressure—on occasions—from the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd.
THE LORD BISHOP OF NORWICHMy Lords, may I press the Lord Privy Seal further in respect of the reasons that he gave for not having any new Committee set up in respect of these interrelated matters concerning legislation on ocean space? While recognising and appreciating the great contribution which is being made from this country and by the Government towards the separate aspects of this subject, is there not all the more reason why there should be a body to consider them collectively and inter-relatedly, and particularly that the Government should be open to advice on such matters in connection with the forthcoming Conference on the Law of the Sea, when a wide range of issues relating to the sea bed will undoubtedly crop up?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, of course the right reverend Prelate can press me further on this matter, but we 1482 have given it very careful consideration. I would remind him that we have a Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution, which has just reported and stated that its priority job next year is going to be the study of the pollution of coastal waters; it will be dealing specifically with marine subjects. We feel that to set up another body now would involve duplication. Moreover, I think that so much of this work is moving so fast at the present time that such a body would always be rather behind in the hunt.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, since we may not have the benefit of the right reverend Prelate's advice for very much longer as he will be retiring shortly, I am wondering whether the noble Earl would consider making further approaches, as a sort of leaving gift to a Prelate who has given such admirable service in so many directions.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, the noble Earl has explained why the Government are not able to set tip the sort of Committee that was suggested in the right reverend Prelate's supplementary question, but may I ask him why the Government are not prepared to set up a Select Committee of the House on ocean space development, which is a much more restricted topic and is not dealing with the whole problem of environmental pollution? That was surely what was requested in the debate initiated in this House by the right reverend Prelate.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I always have some qualms about differing from the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, but it seems to me that ocean space development is an enormous subject. Ocean space, as he knows, covers something like 70 per cent. of the area of this terrestrial globe.
§ LORD IRONSIDEMy Lords, would the Government consider extending the terms of reference of the Committee for Marine Technology, so that it can take into account the legal and economic issues as well as the research and development issues?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, that is a slightly different question. Certainly I will look at it, but at first blush I am not certain that that particular suggestion will 1483 commend itself to Her Majesty's Government, given the constitution and the composition of that particular Committee. I am not certain that it would be wise to extend its terms of reference as my noble friend suggests; but certainly we will look at it.