§ BARONESS BACONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will request the Royal Commission on the Constitution to publish their recommendations about Northern Ireland before the rest of their Report.]
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, it is for the Commission themselves to decide whether there would be any advantage in submitting any of their recommendations before they are in a position to the present their Final Report.
§ BARONESS BACONMy Lords, does the noble Lord recall that during the recent debate he said that the presentation of the Report of the Commission might be some considerable time ahead because of the very wide range of areas which they had to consider? Do I take it from his reply that in the event of the Commission having the Northern Ireland part of their Report ready before the other parts, there would be no objection by the Government to their publishing that part before the rest of their Report?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, that is a matter for the Commission to decide. The question to which they would have to address themselves is whether or not it would be right and desirable and helpful to treat the Northern Ireland aspect of their inquiries as separate from the remainder. The Commission's terms of reference, as the noble Baroness will know, were to review the relations between the several countries, nations and regions of the United Kingdom as a whole. That is what the Commission are doing. But it is up to them to decide on how they should proceed.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, may I challenge the Minister? This is a matter of 7 advantage. The question of advantage is a political decision. In the light of the circumstances in Northern Ireland, is this not a decision which must be made by the Government and not by the Commission?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I am told that the constitutional position with Royal Commissions is that it is their own responsibility to decide whether to report on all aspects at once or whether there are advantages to be gained in reporting on one aspect in advance. There are other considerations; for example, the fact that Northern Ireland has its own Parliament is one of the things the Commission were particularly concerned with at the time they were set up—as to whether or not there should be some form of regional Parliament. To isolate the Northern Ireland aspect might be difficult. But it is for the Commission to decide.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, would the noble Lord consider further the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Byers? Would it not be possible, if necessary, after discussion with the Commission, to amend their terms of reference? Is the noble Lord aware that we recognise that this may not be a convenient course, but in view of powerful arguments in regard to a critical situation, would he consider discussing this matter with his right honourable friend, with a view to at least considering such an amendment, or a discussion with the Royal Commission, while at the same time ensuring that this is not made any sort of excuse for the holding of local elections?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I think we have to be a little careful before making suggestions—whatever the strength of feeling—to Chairmen of Royal Commissions. Royal Commissions are independent bodies; they have to be independent of Government. But the Chairman of the Royal Commission on the Constitution is a Member of your Lordships' House. I am sure he will be aware of these considerations. I should also say that the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, Mr. Faulkner, in his speech on the opening of Parliament on June 22, made it quite clear that there is no question of sitting back and waiting 8 for the Commission to report before any action is taken. Noble Lords will have noted the ideas which he put forward for discussion, concerning functional committees of Parliament. So things are moving ahead.
§ BARONESS BACONMy Lords, is not the fact that changes are taking place in Northern Ireland now an added reason why the Commission should report first of all on Northern Ireland, so that the wires are not crossed, and so that the Northern Ireland Government and Her Majesty's Government have the benefit of the Report of this Commission?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, that is exactly the sort of consideration one would expect the members of the Royal Commission to be aware of. But whether or not it is right to separate one part of a Commission's terms of reference from the others is a delicate question. There are two ways of looking at it, and no doubt the Commission will be considering them both.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, accepting the view that this is a constitutional matter for the Commission, are there not many precedents where Governments have associated themselves with Commissions with a view to getting a report on a matter of such urgency as now exists in Northern Ireland?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I can assure the House that the Chairman of the Royal Commission is aware of these considerations and of the issues of public policy in this country and Northern Ireland. But I do not think it would be right for the Government to lean on a Royal Commission, however strongly we may feel about it, to try to get them to act in a way which Parliament or the Government may think appropriate. It might be convenient at a particular time but whether, in the end, society would benefit from this sort of interference with the work of a Royal Commission is open to doubt.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, could the noble Lord simply answer the question asked by my noble friend Lady Bacon? If the Commission, without being leaned on, are able to have this section of their Report ready, are the Government in favour of its publication?
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, is it not the greatest mistake, if one desires an early Report from a Royal Commission, to vary its terms of reference?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I can really do no more than repeat what I said before: that it is for the Commission to decide. I believe that whatever the Commission may decide will prove acceptable to my right honourable friend.