§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is to be the scope of the investigation into the magistrates' courts forecast by the Lord Chancellor (Hansard, March 15, 1971, col. 239) and when this is likely to be initiated.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD WINDLESHAM)My Lords my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, in consultation with my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor, has invited a number of representative organisations to submit by the end of September observations on alternative proposals for the future organisation of magistrates' courts. The principal issue is whether magistrates' courts should become part of a unified court system, administered centrally, or whether they should remain under local control. The review will take into account the related aspects of the staffing, finance and accommodation of courts.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for his Answer and for a small step in the right direction, may I ask him whether he does not agree that a thorough review of the magistrates' courts, their structure and functioning, is much overdue? May I also ask whether the present time, when these administrative arrangements have to be reconsidered in any case, is not an excellent opportunity for a wider investigation on the lines of the Royal Commission of 1946 to 1948?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, this proposal was put to the previous Administration, and the present Government agree with the answer that was given by the noble and learned Lord, the previous Lord Chancellor, on March 18, 1970 col. 1127, when the suggestion was put to him for a Departmental Committee or a body of that sort. The noble and learned Lord said:
As soon as we are in a position to do so we shall consult those concerned with the magistrates' courts about the administration of those courts, but we do not consider that it will be necessary to appoint a Committee for this purpose.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, would not the Minister agree that the answer that was given by the late Government was given at a stage when the late Government's life looked like coming to a fairly early conclusion? Are we to draw the inference that the same reasoning applies at the present time?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMNo, not at all, my Lords; that would be a great misconception. The issue that has 443 to be resolved is the relatively straightforward one of whether we should continue to have a locally-based system of magistrates' courts, or whether there should be a centralised, unified court system. The facts on this issue are known and what we really need now is a process of consultation to get the opinions of those concerned, so that the Government may then take a decision.
§ LORD ILFORDMy Lords, may I ask whether the local authorities are to be consulted about this matter?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMYes, my Lords. My right honourable friend circulated a memorandum to a number of organisations on June 10. The list of organisations to whom the paper was sent was a fairly long one, and I see that it begins with the Association of Municipal Corporations and the County Councils Association.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, in the consideration that is being given to these changes, is the Minister taking into account whether there should be a reduction in the number of magistrates' courts and an increase in the area which the remaining courts will be called upon to deal with?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, it is considerations of that sort that will be taken into account when we have the reactions of the bodies to whom the paper has been sent. At the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, I placed copies of this paper in the Library, and they are available for noble Lords who are interested.
§ LORD ILFORDMy Lords, may I ask whether the scope of this inquiry will include the obligation to serve a maintenance order?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I should need notice of that question. My instinctive reaction would be to say that it does not, but I should like to check on that and give the noble Lord an authoritative answer.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, in the course of this review, will consideration be given to the position of Lord 444 Lieutenants' advisory committee for the appointment of justices, and also to the positions which will become available for those officers now serving as clerks of the peace?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the review does not cover the appointment and selection of magistrates. That is a matter for my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor and not for my right honourable friend the Home Secretary.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, will consideration be given to the position of existing clerks of the peace, who are people of very high dignity and importance? Will some steps be taken to see that they fit into an appropriate slot in the new organisation?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMYes, my Lords. The review is concerned with the organisation of the courts, and the Justices' Clerks' Society, the Society of Clerks of the Peace of Counties and Clerks of County Councils are among those who are being consulted.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, can the Minister kindly tell us what we are supposed to do? My Question relates to a wide review of the whole structure and function of the magistrates' courts, and the Minister is apparently saying that this is not within his purview but is a matter for the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. We are obliged to address our Questions to Her Majesty's Government, and presumably the Minister who has power to answer the Questions will answer them. But there now seems no way of getting an answer to my Question.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I think the noble Baroness has done extremely well; she has had answers from both Ministers concerned. When this subject was last raised by the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, the Question was answered by my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack because it related to the appointment and selection of magistrates. This particular Question was concerned with the organisation of the magistrates' courts, which are the responsibility of the Home Secretary, so I have answered on this occasion. But we have both had a go at it.