§ 3.15 p.m.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether all the welfare services referred to in Section 2(1) of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970 are mandatory on local authorities.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE)My Lords, the section to which the noble Lord refers lists a number of services intended for the benefit of permanently and substantially handicapped persons. If a local authority is satisfied that any such person needs one or more of these services, then it is the duty of the local authority under this section to make arrangements to provide them for him. In this sense all the services listed in the section are mandatory on local authorities.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord the Minister for such a satisfactory reply.
§ LORD BURNTWOODMy Lords is the noble Lord aware of the fact that, at least until a year ago, there was a chaotic state of affairs in regard to the registration of the personal details of these disabled persons? Although I believe that the Government are aware of that fact, may I ask what action has been taken to see that local authorities keep a uniform register with which to enforce this Act?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, the question of a local authority informing themselves of the people in their area who require these facilities is covered by Section 1 of the Act, and that comes into operation on October 1.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, is it not more accurate to say that the keeping of a register is mandatory, but that the provision of services is within the discretion of local authorities?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I think I am right in saying that only certain registers have to be kept. These 446 services are in one sense at the discretion of the local authorities; but if they are satisfied that the need exists under any of the subsections of Section 2 then they have to provide the service.
§ LORD MAYBRAY-KINGMy Lords, is it not true that most of the provisions of this Act are mandatory; that it is bound to take time to implement them; that some local authorities have already begun splendidly in this field, and that the time may have to come when we ask the local authorities not whether they have completed their task, but how far they have gone to begin this tremendous task of achieving a reform which has the support of every single Member of both Houses?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord. I think he has put the situation most accurately. It is indeed a formidable task that confronts local authorities. They have limited funds at their disposal; they are in the midst of the reorganisation of their social services departments, and I am sure that most of them are only too keen to carry forward this work for the physically and mentally handicapped.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, can the noble Lord say what action is being taken to expedite this work? Is he aware that many local authorities are dragging their feet? And if a register is not compiled, how is it possible for any medical officer of health to know exactly where these people are living?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I cannot agree that many local authorities are dragging their feet. They vary in the degree to which they put their resources into one or another type of activity. But so far as the register is concerned, what is important is whether a person is receiving the assistance which he or she requires, rather than that a lot of time of officials of local authorities should be taken up in compiling registers.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, since the noble Lord the Minister has been good enough to answer questions on Section 1, may I ask him whether he has thought again about the sentence in his circular to local authorities pointing out that it is not necessary, nor are they 447 expected, to undertake a 100 per cent. identification, and whether he will in due course advise them that this is essential?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I think we are on a completely different point. But I cannot really agree with the noble Lord. What we must get away from is a situation in which everybody is wasting time on a lot of paper work. What we want to do is to make sure that all the people who need the services are known to the local authority.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEBut, my Lords, if there is not to be a 100 per cent. register of those needing help, how can any authority help them?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, if they are aware of the services and go to the local authority for help, they will automatically be known to the local authority. What we are trying to avoid is a great number of people going round on a house-to-house search, spending a lot of time making a register, when they would be far better occupied giving their assistance in the provision of the help that these people require.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask one more supplementary question? This is such an important matter. How can a housebound, chronically disabled individual take all the actions the Minister indicates? That is the whole point about sending somebody to see them. They are unable to go to the town hall; they are unable to write letters and get to the post. They are chronically disabled and housebound.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I should have thought that most people were able to get a message through to their local authority, and each local authority employs numerous social workers—health visitors and others—through whom they can be contacted.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether or not doctors generally might be requested, or be put under some obligation, to notify local authorities? They probably know more of these people than anybody else does.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, that is a sensible suggestion, but there are grave difficulties concerned in the confidential 448 nature of the information which a doctor has and which he is not supposed to pass on to others.
§ LORD BURNTWOODMy Lords, I am sorry to persist in this matter, because the noble Lord has been very courteous in answering. But is he aware of the fact that any Member of Parliament or local councillor knows of cases, quite by accident, where housebound and disabled persons are virtually hidden away, and that very often they are not people who offer information about themselves? This is the point about registration.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I should have thought that in such cases the person who knew of them could bring their plight to the attention of the local authority.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLBut, my Lords, is not the noble Lord aware that the person who is certain to know about them is the doctor, and that no doctor and no relation of the individual concerned would regard it as revealing a confidence to tell the local authority that a certain individual is housebound and is unable to get out of the house?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I think the noble Baroness should take that up with her own profession and not with me.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLReally!
THE EARL OF SELKIRKMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl the Leader of the House whether the purpose of supplementary questions is to elicit information and not to advance argument?
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)My Lords, my noble friend has put the point very succinctly, and he has almost taken the words out of my mouth.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, is the noble Earl the Leader of the House also aware that it has been the practice, especially when his Party was in Opposition, to do exactly what many people are doing on this occasion?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I have noticed that in this House we sometimes stray from the purely straight and narrow paths of protocol and virtue, but I think 449 we have had an almost inordinately long supplementary question time on this last Question, and I am sure that noble Lords want to press on rather quickly to that paradise which stretches ahead of them—namely, the Industrial Relations Bill.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, is the noble Earl also aware that if the purpose is to elicit information it would sometimes help if that information were forthcoming?