§ 3.15 p.m.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government why a maintenance allowance cannot be drawn through the Post Office and the amount deducted through P.A.Y.E.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE)My Lords I am afraid that this system would not work, because it is not practicable to use the P.A.Y.E. machinery to collect maintenance payments.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that that is an entirely negative answer to a very important social problem? Does he realise that in consequence of using the present practice poor women—thousands of them—are compelled every week to visit the magistrates' court, often with their children, to see whether any money has been paid in? And is he aware that, as a result of this practice, 3,000 men are committed to prison every year? Does he not think that the time has come when there should be a change of mind?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I am very well aware of all that the noble Baroness has said and that there is a very serious problem. But I am afraid that the suggestion she makes is not practicable. The noble Baroness is probably aware of the Payne Committee Report on the Enforcement of Judgment Debts. The Report went very carefully into the use of P.A.Y.E. and it was found to be impracticable. On the other hand, we are strengthening the machinery for enforcing maintenance by the attachment-of-earnings procedure when Part II of the Administration of Justice Act, 1970, comes into force later this year.
§ LORD ROYLEMy Lords, would it not be possible to carry out my noble friend's suggestion if it were not a question of P.A.Y.E. but of drawing the money at a post office? Is it not a fact 1063 that very many women find it distressing to go week after week to a magistrates' court to get their maintenance allowance?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, it is possible for these maintenance allowance payments to be made by post, so that people do not have to queue up for them. I am afraid that the question is how to recover the payments from the defaulter, from the deserting husband. Although payments could be made perfectly easily, the problem is how to collect the money.
§ BARONESS STOCKSMy Lords, would it be possible to get us a little nearer to what the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, has in mind if the payment could be made through the offices of the Ministry of Social Security, which is already, in many cases, dealing with benefits to deserted wives? The question I should like to put to the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare is: are there a sufficient number of Social Security offices accessible throughout the country to be within reach of the women who would otherwise find post offices inaccessible?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I think this would be difficult and I should like to go into it a little more carefully. The offices of the Ministry of Social Security are already heavily overburdened and, as I say, the present rules are such that these payments may be made by post, which I should have thought the most convenient way in nearly all circumstances.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, while everybody is concerned not to add to bureaucracy and numbers will the noble Lord consider my noble friend's Question again? It is quite clear that there is here a matter of great anxiety and personal suffering, and it may well be that a further examination might yield a more satisfactory answer.
§ LORD ABERDARECertainly, my Lords, I shall be glad to do what the noble Lord suggests. There is one other thing that I might mention. At the moment a Departmental Committee, the Finer Committee, is considering the income of the one-parent families. That goes wider than what the noble Baroness has in mind, but the Committee will be considering this point.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, is it not a fact that if a payment is made through the magistrates' court the magistrates' clerk is kept informed whether the payments are up to date, and it also enables him to pursue the husband if necessary?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, in order that he may be more enlightened on this subject may I ask the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, whether he will read a book, written by Professor McGregor and published yesterday, called Separate Spouses? It was written as the result of an inquiry financed by the Nuffield Trust? The committee which conducted the inquiry had as its chairman Sir Jocelyn Simon, the President of the Divorce Court, and the book deals with this subject in detail. I hope that the noble Lord will have it as his bedside reading. If he does so, perhaps in a week or two he may change his mind.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I am grateful for the suggestion.
§ EARL FORTESCUEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that with the minimum of good will it is perfectly possible for the employer of the deserter to pay into the local magistrates' court the amount allocated?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, if my noble friend is referring to attachment of earnings, I agree that this is a hopeful way in which this kind of problem can be tackled.