HL Deb 12 January 1971 vol 314 cc6-9

2.45 p.m.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been achieved since the decision to increase the number of volunteers in the T. & A.V.R. to 10,000.]

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON)

My Lords, the detailed implementation of the Government's proposals for expanding Group A of the T. & A.V.R., announced in the Supplementary Statement on Defence Policy 1970, has been fully discussed with the Council of Territorial, Auxiliary and Volunteer Reserve Associations, and with the Associations themselves.

The new Armoured Car Regiment will consist of a headquarters, a headquarters squadron and three armoured car squadrons formed on existing Yeomanry cadres. A further 20 unit headquarters and 77 sub-units of company size for employment in an infantry role will be formed, in most cases by expanding existing cadres including those of the Yeomanry and Royal Artillery. Cadres which have not been involved in this expansion will continue on their present basis. Units will begin to form on April 1 and it is expected that all will have started to recruit by July 1.

Members of the Armoured Car Regiment will have the normal training obligation of 15 days annual camp and 12 days out-of-camp training. Members of the other new units will have the same annual camp obligation but their out-of-camp obligation will be for six days.

I will circulate with the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the places at which the units and sub-units involved will be formed.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, that is very valuable information. Will the noble Lord be kind enough to answer the main point of my Question; namely, whether the Government have managed to reach the target of 10,000? Unless they have done so, I am very dissatisfied with the Answer.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I think the noble Lord misunderstands the position. I announced in the Supplementary Statement on Defence that we were proposing to recruit an extra 10,000 Territorials, and these are the plans on which the 10,000 will be recruited. Recruiting has not yet started.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, how long is to elapse before we reach the target? Does the noble Lord recognise (I am sure that he must) that because of the paucity of voluntary recruiting, and because few regiments are up to establishment, it is essential that we should have a strengthened Reserve? Is the noble Lord aware that unless we strengthen the Reserve I shall continue to pester, worry and harass the noble Lord until the Reserve is strengthened in accordance with the needs of our defence?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, it is a great pity that the noble Lord was not more successful in preventing noble Lords opposite from disbanding the Territorial Army. May I say to the noble Lord opposite that it would be unusual to achieve your target of recruitment before recruiting is commenced.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I have never ceased to demand a strong Reserve to assist the Regular Forces? I have done so for several years—indeed, ever since I was associated with Defence Departments. I do not care two hoots about what the last Government did. I ask the present Government to face up to the situation.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I was not criticising the noble Lord's intentions; only his lack of success.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

My Lords, I am speaking as the honorary colonel of a T.A. Regiment which was reduced to eight men by the previous Government. Is the noble Lord aware that we are "raring to go" to recruit the 10,000 referred to? I hope that he may be able to give some assurance—or perhaps somebody else may be able to do so—that this matter will now be taken out of Party politics, so that we can get on with recruiting without fear of another axe in four or five years' time.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I am grateful for what the noble Lord has said. I, too, hope that we shall not have much difficulty in getting the extra 10,000 men. I of course agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, has said about the need for these men.

LORD INGLEWOOD

My Lords, in order to make quite certain that we get the 10,000 men—and quickly—may I ask my noble friend whether he will consider allowing these units, which are going to be recruited first, I think, just to company strength, to wear the badges of their old county regiments which were recently taken away from them?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I hope that my noble friend will look at the areas in which these regiments are going to be recruited. They are not going to be up to company strength; they are going to be to full strength. They are going to be battalions with separate companies in different areas, and we are at the moment examining the question of what these units will be called, and what cap badges they will wear.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, will the noble Lord say whether these recruits, who are now part of the plan—the cadres, and all the rest of the various units to which he referred—will have adequate training facilities, will have the necessary drill halls, and will be given up-to-date weapons?

LORD CARRINGTON

Yes, my Lords, Drill halls will be available; and we have decided to form the units partly around drill halls which are still available. This new force will be armed with up-to-date weapons, although they will not have support weapons.

LORD BOURNE

My Lords, may I ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether he can fill out the details a little: for example, with names of any of the cadres?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, the list of infantry cadres is very long, because there are 77 sub-units. The noble Lord might like to know about the new Armoured Car Regiment, which will be formed on cadres of the Northumberland Hussars, the Cheshire Yeomanry, the Queen's Own Yorkshire Yeomanry and the Ayrshire Yeomanry.

THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR

My Lords, it has been the case hitherto in Scotland, particularly in the Highlands, for these units to be named after the clan from which they originated. Is this not a possibility?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend, and with the noble Lord who asked the Question originally, that the name of the regiment, and its traditions, are extremely important. We intend to do everything we can to perpetuate the name.

LORD BOURNE

My Lords, is the Secretary of State for Defence able to publish a similar list for the infantry cadres? We are grateful for the information about the Armoured Car Regiment. Is a similar list to be published shortly about the infantry?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, it will be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the information referred to: The following are the locations proposed for the new units (including detachments of sub-units). It is possible that minor changes may be necessary.