§ 3.18 p.m.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make representations to the Government of the Republic of 1165 South Africa to end all practices of racial discrimination at the Simonstown Naval Base under the Simonstown Agreement.]
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the sole ground on which Her Majesty's Government might make such representations would be with regard to those terms of the Simonstown Agreement which govern employment conditions for non-whites at the Base. Her Majesty's Government are not aware of any departure by the South African Government from their obligations under that Agreement.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. May I ask whether it is not the case that nonwhite members of British crews going to Simonstown have to travel several miles before they can eat in a restaurant? Further, is it not the case that the United States of America has decided that its crews shall not land at Simonstown because of the apartheid policy which is being pursued there?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the noble Lord perhaps is not aware that the Base Agreement referred to the Naval Base and Dockyard area, and related exclusively to employment and security of tenure conditions in employment. If any crew member goes outside the Simonstown Naval Dockyard and Base he comes under the same regulations and social customs as apply throughout South Africa.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I certainly have no objection to the noble Baroness answering a Question on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, but I must express very great surprise that a Question relating to Simonstown was not being answered by the Secretary of State for Defence, who is a very respected and honoured Member of your Lordships' House.
May I put this question to the noble Baroness? Is it not a fact that coloured sailors, who leave a ship in the Simonstown Base, are subject to the racial discrimination that exists in Africa; that a coloured sailor who comes off a ship in the Simonstown Base cannot have a 1166 drink or a meal in that Base with his white colleagues?
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)My Lords, before my noble friend replies—and she also is a respected and honoured Member of your Lordships' House—I should like to make it clear in answer to the noble Lord that the noble Baroness was answering this Question because she also answers Foreign Office Questions, and this is a Question properly addressed to the Foreign Office.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I will take that as a reason, from the noble Earl the Leader of the House. But one of the things we have taken some satisfaction in in this House is that we have here the Secretary of State for Defence. We applauded that yesterday; on the other hand, we expressed the view that the other place suffered as a consequence of it. But it seems to me strange that the Simonstown Base, which is an issue that causes very great concern, is dealt with in this way, and that the Secretary of State, who has this special position in relation to the Services, is not answering this Question. I am prepared, as I am quite certain my noble friends on this side of the House are, to take the Answer from the noble Baroness. But will she now please answer my question?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEYes, my Lords; I shall be delighted to do so, and I quite appreciate that noble Lords would much rather hear my noble friend. But, as the noble Earl the Leader of the House has said, this matter came under the Foreign Office and I was asked to reply, as my noble friend Lord Lothian was not available. On the specific question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, it is a fact that anyone who ventures outside the Simonstown Naval Base and Dockyard will come under the ordinary laws in South Africa, which we in this country, as much as everywhere else, do not applaud or support. On the other hand, the agreement, which is the subject of this Question, has been completely carried out by the South African Government. There is no racial discrimination within the Base.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, may I direct the noble Baroness's attention to the wording of the Question? It asks for 1167 representations by Her Majesty's Government,
to end all practices of racial discrimination at the Simonstown Naval Base".I asked the noble Baroness: is it not a fact that if a coloured sailor comes off a ship in the Simonstown Base he is prohibited from having a drink with his white colleagues in the Naval Base?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIENo, my Lords. My information is that there is no racial discrimination whatsoever within the Naval Base and Dockyard. If a crew member wishes to go to get a drink, as the noble Lord suggests, or to have a meal, then he will have to go outside the Base, and he will then be subject to the usual laws of South Africa.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness and I think she knows the respect and honour in which I held her in another place, as well as I do here—whether it is not a fact that, within the Dockyard itself, a non-white sailor on a British ship cannot get a meal; that he must go outside the Dockyard many miles to do so? Is it not also a fact that the American Government have prohibited their crews from landing at Simonstown because of the racial discrimination which is practised?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I think one must make a distinction between the Naval Base and Dockyard and the conditions which appertain outside the Base and the Dockyard. There is no racial discrimination within the Dockyard. In fact, more non-Europeans are employed to-day than when the Agreement was made in 1957.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, I find the noble Baroness's answer rather confusing. She says that there is no discrimination within the Base; and that a coloured man must go outside the base to get a meal or drink. May I ask whether a white man can get a meal or drink within the Base; and, if so, how does she come to the conclusion that there is no discrimination?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, my information is that there are in fact no facilities, 1168 apart from on board a ship, for anyone to get the particular drinks or meals to which the noble Baroness refers. In the Base and the Dockyard, where the employment takes place, there is no discrimination; and indeed between the Europeans and the non-Europeans the conditions of pay and privileges have been greatly improved.
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, while one is very diffident about pressing the noble Baroness in regard to this matter, because we are sorry she has got saddled with it, may I ask whether she is aware (although I do not suppose she can be) that even within the Base itself toilets, for men at least, are different for whites and for coloureds?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEWell, my Lords, I must confess that I am not aware of this particular fact. But if the noble Lord would like me to find out the information, I will certainly write to him.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, am I correct in understanding from the noble Baroness that there is no discrimination between the whites and the coloureds? Is it not a fact that out of just over 1,000 coloured employees in the Dockyard there are only just over 100 who are engaged on jobs which have equality of pay, and that all the remainder are temporary employees on a much lower rate of pay than the permanent employees have?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we are making inquiries on the exact configuration of jobs among the 1,231 non-Europeans. But, so far as preliminary inquiries are concerned, I am told that of these non-Europeans—they are mainly coloured, but there are few Africans because the work is mostly skilled or semi-skilled—only a certain number occupy fully established posts. I think that there are 167 fully established non-Europeans altogether.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, in view of the fact that the noble Baroness has said she will look into this matter, and will no doubt be in a position to give further information, perhaps I may give notice to the noble Earl the Leader of the House that we shall seek an opportunity to raise the whole question of Simonstown conditions in relation to our Service people and also the coloured employees, and perhaps the Secretary of 1169 State for Defence will then answer for the Government.