§ LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEUMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the excellent results which have been achieved by the cleaning of historic public buildings in London, they will consider suitable similar treatment for Westminster Abbey.]
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the cleaning which Her Majesty's Government have had done has formed part of the maintenance of those public buildings for which the Government are responsible and for which funds have been provided by Parliament. The maintenance of Church properties is not the responsibility of the Government and funds are not provided by Parliament for this purpose. The most that the Government can do—and I can assure the noble Lord that they are very ready to do this—is to make their experience available to the Church authorities if this would be helpful.
§ LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEUMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask if he can tell us whether or not the Church authorities have any plans to do such work in the future?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I am sorry, but I do not know, and therefore I cannot give that information.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether there is not a grant available from any Government Department for this sort of work?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, so far as historic buildings are concerned, ecclesiastical buildings in regular use are specifically exempt from listed building control and as such are not eligible for grant on that score; and under the provisions for ancient monuments ecclesiastical buildings are statutorily excluded from the benefits of the Ancient Monuments Act 1931.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, can the noble Lord say why there should be a Government grant for Westminster Abbey, in the light of the amount of funds controlled by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, this is not a matter for the Government. No doubt Westminster Abbey, like St. Paul's Cathedral, has its Friends who might be willing to help.
§ LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEYMy Lords, while supporting the idea behind the Question, may I ask whether this is not a case where your Lordships' House might remove the beam in its own eye before thinking about the mote in its neighbour's eye?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the Department will take note of what the noble Lord has said.
VISCOUNT MONCKMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether, in the event of any information being made available by Her Majesty's Government, they will, before any work is started on Westminster Abbey, make certain that all information is supplied from St. Paul's Cathedral, especially as to whether the recent cleaning is in any way responsible for the vast sum now required for its restoration?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONYes, my Lords. It is possibly more to the point that the Government have themselves cleaned the Chapter House of Westminster Abbey, which noble Lords may know is a Royal possession entrusted to the Department of the Environment, and as the Chapter House is of a similar stone to the rest of the Abbey the information which we have obtained from doing that work is available if the Church authorities and the Dean wish to consult us in the matter.