NORTHERN IRELAND DISORDERS (Hansard, 11 February 1971)

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON)
My Lords, if the noble Lord is referring to the measures I told him about in reply to his Question on February 4, I may say that the additional expenditure cannot be precisely calculated but it is not likely to be great.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether we are not spending far too much money in order to solve a problem which cannot be resolved by military means alone? Ought we not to consider some other device, some other expedient, perhaps—as I suggested in my Question last week to which the noble Lord referred—convening a conference of all the interested parties, including the clergy, the Stormont Government, representatives of the United Kingdom Government and even representatives from so-called independent and abrasive and aggressive elements, in order to try to reach some kind of solution? How long are we going on spending vast sums of money in order to keep the peace, which cannot be kept?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, the noble Lord asked me about a conference and I said I would pass the question on to my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, which I have done. If the noble Lord will put down a Question about it, I have no doubt the appropriate Minister will answer it, but it is not for my Department and it is not precisely to do with this Question. I would just say to the noble Lord that if the Army were not there it would be terrible to think what might happen. One must remember that until the Northern Irish decide other- 242 wise, Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I have never suggested at any time that the Army should not be in Ulster? I have gone so far as to say, as many of us have said—indeed there has been unanimity in this House on this matter—that we praise the fortitude and courage of our men in the Forces in Ulster. That is not my point at all. Is it not about time that the noble Lord realised that he has not got to wait for a Question from me or any other Member of your Lordships' House; it is for the Government to come along, through a representative Minister or Ministers, and make some kind of suggestion that might bring this horrible situation to an end?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, the noble Lord asked me about the additional expenditure to which I referred as a result of his Question of last week. The additional expenditure relates to the Armed Services, and so I answered his Question, and the money we are spending there is related to the Armed Services. If I have misunderstood the noble Lord, I am sorry.

§ LORD BROCKWAY
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether Her Majesty's Government have noted the attitude on this matter of the trade unions in Ulster, of the main body of Churches and of that quite extraordinary demonstration by the women who held hands between the Forces of the two sides? Cannot Her Majesty's Government give some encouragement to those elements in Ulster which represent undoubtedly the majority of the people and which are seeking a solution to this problem without a confrontation of force?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, I think everybody would agree with the noble Lord that one wants to encourage as much as possible those forces which are opposed to violence, and this the Government will do in conjunction with the Government of Northern Ireland. I would just say this: I think there has been one encouraging factor in the last ten days, when we have seen the situation in Northern Ireland become much more violent (the subject of another Question 243 later to-day by the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell): one of the good things is that the crowds have been much smaller, and it appears that they are unwilling to come out in the streets and join in violence of that sort.

§ LORD BLYTON
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we all admire the fortitude of our troops between two contesting parties in Northern Ireland? But the noble Lord must be aware that there is now a terrible feeling in the country that we ought to bring our troops out and let those in Northern Ireland settle the matter among themselves.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, that feeling will, I hope, be balanced by the feeling of more responsible people, who will realise what would happen if the British Army were not there to totally innocent people who do not wish to have any part in this violence at all. As I said, I think the feeling to which the noble Lord refers would be a most misleading and wrong impression to get about.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, I think the noble Lord will understand that deep concern is felt on all sides of the House on Northern Ireland; many of us would have liked to put Questions down. We have refrained from doing so for fear of making the situation in Northern Ireland worse and the task of our Forces even more difficult than it now is. I hope the noble Lord will pursue with his right honourable friend the Home Secretary the point that was made by my noble friend Lord Shinwell. But before inviting my noble friend to put a Question down, I think that this may be an occasion when discussions could take place between the two Front Benches, either in this House or in another place, to see whether it would be opportune and whether a Statement could be made. This is a case where we need to be very careful and in which we can work together for a proper solution.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, the noble Lord knows very well that anything we on this side of the House can do together with the noble Lords opposite we will do. There is no Party issue here. Everybody in the House, not least the Government, is worried about the situation in Northern Ireland. Of course the Government are thinking of every 244 possible way of finding a solution, and not least the sort of solution suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell. But it would be idle to deny that there are great difficulties in the way of his solution.