HL Deb 02 December 1971 vol 326 cc475-6

3.22 p.m.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make regulations providing that live ammunition shall not be kept on any school premises.]

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, if I may repeat the Answer which I incorrectly gave earlier, it is as follows. No, my Lords. Live ammunition presents a security problem wherever it is stored. If the proper precautions are taken, there is no reason why ammunition should be less secure in school premises than elsewhere.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, while thanking the Minister for his Answer, may I ask him whether he recalls that on June 24 last the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, answered a Question about the storing of ammunition in approved schools, and emphasised that pupils in approved schools are not convicted offenders? Therefore would it not be both more logical and more prudent to apply a similar restriction to all schools, especially in view of the disastrous consequences that followed the recent theft from the Whitgift School at Croydon?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, it is an absolute condition of holding live ammunition on any school premises that it should be kept in a secure place when not in actual use. If the ammunition is used for the purposes of an approved rifle club in a school, the place where it is kept will normally be subject to regular inspection by the police. If it is held for the purposes of a Combined Cadet Force unit the conditions of its storage will be governed by Army Board instructions. Here again, C. C. F. units are subject to regular inspection by trained Army personnel to ensure that proper security is maintained.

BARONESS STOCKS

My Lords, does the word "school" apply to fairgrounds and shops where ammunition and firearms can be grabbed and run away with?

LORD WINDLESHAM

No, my Lords; the word "school" does not include premises of that kind.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, may I ask the Minister one further question? Is he satisfied with a situation in which schoolboys of 15, carrying guns, and the staff of their school, carrying live ammunition, are walking unprotected in London streets between the school and the firing range?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, I was not aware of that circumstance. When boys in schools have access to weapons, they have them only for one of two purposes: either for rifle shooting on a range, or for military training through the C.C.F. In both of these circumstances they are supervised by properly qualified instructors. So they should not be walking alone through the streets of London, or be alone on a rifle range.