§ 3.14 p.m.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many affirmative answers have been received since the Firearms Act 1968 came into force to the question asked of an applicant for either a firearms or a shotgun certificate as to whether he suffers from any form of mental disorder or defect.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD WINDLESHAM)No, my Lords. Live ammunition presents a security problem—
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, this is the Answer to the second Question. I have two Questions, and the first one relates to the firearms certificate.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I was answering the first of the two Questions, Perhaps I might proceed with it.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERI beg the Ministers pardon.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I am sorry if the Answer was unpalatable, but I have not finished it. I will start again. The Answer was, "No." Live ammunition presents a security problem wherever it is stored. If the proper precautions are taken there is no reason why ammunition should be less secure in school premises than elsewhere.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, I beg the Minister's pardon, but he is in fact answering my second Question, which relates to the storing of ammunition in school premises.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I must apologise to the House. I have got the Answers in the wrong order in my file. I will try again.
My Lords, this information is not readily available—I am afraid that both the Answers I have are rather negative. I can, however, inform the noble Baroness that affirmative answers are received from time to time. The police would treat each case on its merits and in accordance with the requirements of the Firearms Act.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, I thank the Minister for his rather surprising Answer. Might I ask him whether it would not be better, rather than put this question to the applicant himself, that it should be put to some responsible person who is well acquainted with him?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, this question appears on the form because of a requirement in the Firearms Act. It is quite usual to put such a question to people filling in forms. For example, there is a similar question, as the noble Baroness may know, on the application form for a driving licence. It does, therefore, have a disincentive effect. It is an offence to fill in an application form for a firearm incorrectly. There is no absolute ban on somebody who has suffered from a mental disorder or defect being granted a firearm certificate, but such a certificate would of course be granted by a Chief Officer of Police 473 only following the most careful inquiries. These might well include inquiries of the medical practitioner treating the applicant.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, if a person has not been certified, does this question have any validity at all? Does a person have enough insight into his condition to be able to tell a lay individual that he has some mental defect? The very fact that he has a mental defect may persuade him that he has not got a mental defect.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, there can be no absolute truth in these matters. But I should have thought that what the noble Baroness has said suggests that there is all the more reason for questions of this sort to appear on the form rather than be omitted completely.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLIf he has not been certified, my Lords? My point is that certification alone will be the evidence that he has been treated. If he has not been certified are not the words "mental defect" redundant, because there is no evidence at all that he has been treated ror any complaint?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I do not think so. The wording of the question is, "Do you suffer from any form of mental disorder or defect?" This is a very general question, and it has been answered on a number of occasions in the affirmative. It seems to me it is desirable that a question of this sort should appear on an application form, although one cannot of course be absolutely certain that it will be answered truthfully in each case.
§ BARONESS STOCKSMy Lords, may I put two supplementary questions which are relevant to this whole question, and which arise out of certain cases the police have reported which do raise solemn thoughts. In The Times of November 24 it is reported that a couple held up at gun point a gunsmith with one of his shotguns, and they were later found dead in a car. How did they get that shotgun? They grabbed it out of the gunsmith's shop and ran away. If it is possible to get a shotgun under those conditions, then it seems to me that the regulations concerning their sale and use are scarcely valid. In the other case, a man was jailed for five years after having barri- 474 caded himself in his home and threatened to kill his two young children. He pleaded guilty to using a firearm, but he did not plead guilty to possessing a fire-arm, although it appears that he possessed two shotguns and a quantity of ammunition. Was any inquiry made, when that case was before the courts, as to whether he held a valid certificate for those shotguns?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I think I have confused the noble Baroness so much that she is now asking a question arising from the second Question of the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, rather than from the first. So far as we can tell, only a minority of weapons used in the commission of crime have ever had a firearm certificate attached to them. But although it is a minority it is still a significant minority. There is a pool of weapons, most unfortunately, which have never been certificated or registered at all.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, can the Minister say what procedure is followed when an applicant replies in the affirmative? Is his application further considered, or is it automatically turned down?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMNo, my Lords; it is further considered. Medical advice would invariably be taken.
§ LORD FOOTMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he has a record in his Ministry of any prosecutions of people for making false answers to this question on the form?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMI cannot answer that question without notice, my Lords.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he will give serious consideration to the possibility of asking this question, not of the applicant but of some responsible person who knows him? I do not think he answered that point.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I think it would be difficult to know to whom the question should be addressed. But, as the noble Baroness knows, the Chief Inspector of Constabulary is at the moment reviewing the whole question of the control of firearms, and I can certainly refer this suggestion to him for his consideration.