HL Deb 19 November 1970 vol 312 cc1239-41
LORD GARNSWORTHY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend, as the last Government did, to increase the penalties for illegally polluting our environment, so as to bring them into line with the realities of modern economic life.]

THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (LORD SANDFORD)

My Lords, we are continuing the review of penalties for contravention of the laws concerned with the control of pollution of the environment which was set in motion by the former Government, but this is a complex and highly technical subject and many conclusions have yet to be reached in the greater part of the field. However, the first instalment in this field, the Oil in Navigable Waters Bill, is already under consideration in another place and, as your Lordships will know, it is proposed to raise very substantially indeed the maximum fine on summary conviction of the offence of illegally discharging oil into the sea.

LORD GARNSWORTHY

My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord for that reply and ask him if he can indicate whether in point of fact the review will cover the whole field—that is to say, air, land and internal as well as navigable waters—since quite clearly the present penalties are not merely inadequate but utterly ludicrous, when one reflects upon the fact (which I would ask the Minister to bear in mind) that the maximum penalty at the moment for allowing effluent to enter rivers is £100 and for discharging oil in navigable waters only £1,000?

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, I would confirm to the noble Lord that the review is going on over the entire field, but I should prefer at this stage not to prejudge the conclusions of that review by commenting on the precise penalties that exist at the moment.

LORD GARNSWORTHY

My Lords, I wonder if I could ask the noble Lord whether, when the House debates the Motion submitted by the noble Lord, Lord Molson, he will be in a better position than he is this afternoon to reply to some of these points?

LORD SANDFORD

Yes, my Lords, it may well be possible and more appropriate to go into further detail then.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, can the noble Lord do anything to get the laws against litter effectively enforced? Because at present they appear to be a total dead-letter.

LORD KENNET

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the last White Paper on this subject, issued earlier this year, said: The Government will in due course amend the law where necessary to bring them"— that is, the penalties— into line with the realities of modern life."? Do those words "will in due course" still stand, or have they been abandoned by the new Government?

LORD SANDFORD

No, my Lords. I thought that in my original Answer I indicated that not only will the present Government bring legislation before Parliament in order to bring the penalties into line with the realities of modern life but that they have in fact already done so in one particular case.

LORD POPPLEWELL

My Lords, as this Question refers merely to illegal pollution, is the noble Lord able to give any assurance that the Government, in thinking about this matter, will go a little deeper and will think about the legal pollution that takes place? One remembers, during the recent dustmen's strike, a lot of newspaper talk about the pollution of the River Aire consequent upon sewage not being dealt with. The Aire is one of the most polluted streams, through industrial waste, that one could find.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Order, order!

LORD POPPLEWELL

My Lords, is the noble Lord able to give us an assurance that when the Government are thinking deeply about this subject, such rivers as the Aire will be taken into consideration?

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, I shall be delighted to answer a Question about that or any other aspect of pollution if the noble Lord will put one down.

LORD SALTOUN

My Lords, as I was long ago very deeply interested in this question, I should like to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will give special attention to that damning proviso in the Act of 1878 which has been the mother of all pollution ever since.

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, is the noble Lord going to answer the question asked by my noble friend Lady Wootton of Abinger? Is it not important, not only to put new legislation on the Statute Book, but to see that that which is already there is implemented?

LORD SANDFORD

Yes, my Lords; but that is another question.

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