CIVIL AVIATION POLICY (Hansard, 18 November 1970)

§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN)
My Lords, the Government hope to make a Statement shortly on civil aviation policy, including the future of B.O.A.C. and B.E.A. and their Boards. Meanwhile, discussions about the transfer of routes are proceeding, and a Statement will be made when it has been decided which routes are to be transferred.

§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE
My Lords, arising out of that reply, may I ask the noble Lord this question? How can the Government justify the present position, when in five or six weeks' time there will be no chairmen of Boards, there will be no Board members, there will be no instructions for the implementation of policy and, so far as B.E.A. is concerned, there will be no new aircraft? Really, you cannot run a business—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS
Order, order!

§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE
My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is impossible to run a business which earns £320 million a year, as the two Corporations do, if for five to six weeks they do not know where they stand?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, may I say two things to my noble friend? First, I have already said that a Statement will be made shortly—and I mean shortly. Secondly, when you are working to a fixed time and there has been an Election earlier in the year, some time must be allowed to the Government to decide their policy.

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, the noble Lord says "shortly". Would he tell the House what he means by "shortly"? Then, with regard to routes, is the noble Lord aware that all those interested in aviation, of all Parties and of no Party, had hoped that by now any decision about routes would be taken on a non-Party basis; that it had been hoped that with the introduction of the promised new aviation authority this would be the pattern of the future? Can he give an assurance that no transfer of routes will take place until the new licensing authority is established?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, with regard to the first point, I think that I can only say that "shortly" means "very soon". In regard to the second point, the answer is that I cannot give such an assurance.

§ LORD BLYTON
My Lords, does not the Minister think it disgraceful that there should be contemplated the having-off of £6 million worth of business from the nationalised industries to private enterprise, to give profits to the Government's Tory friends?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, this really is a question for debate, and the opportunity to debate a matter of this sort will arise when the civil aviation declaratory provisions come before the House.

§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE
My Lords, is the Minister aware that "shortly", as he says, is too late and that the Boards of the Corporations do not know where they are and the personnel of the Corporations do not know where they are? And to say that a General Election took place and we had our own policy set out in our Election Manifesto, is no excuse for the lateness of Her Majesty's Government on this subject.

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, I feel every sympathy with the noble Lord in this matter, but the Government have made all due expedition in reaching their decision and, as I say, he will not have to wait very much longer.

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, although the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, says that he has every sympathy, will he take this a little further? I beg of him to 1122 prevail on his right honourable friend to believe that it would be in the interests of everyone, including Caledonian Airways, that this transfer of routes takes place, if at all, on the authority of the new licensing body, and not on a political decision.

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, I also hope that the transfer of routes will take place on the authority of the Air Transport Licensing Board. But this, as the noble Lord will be aware, does not lie entirely in the hands of the Government at the present time.

§ EARL AMHERST
My Lords, despite the fact that a Statement is shortly to be made, can the noble Lord now tell us just what the new Board can do which the two Boards of the Corporations have not done in the past, bearing in mind that the co-operation between B.E.A. and B.O.A.C. is greater now than it has ever been and has culminated in a worldwide joint computerised sales service? Is this not really the first step towards amalgamation?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, the noble Earl's question indicates once again how difficult it is to get all-Party agreement on a matter of this kind. I thought that there was agreement between the Parties on the amalgamation of the two Boards.

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord in what way this decision will be made? Will it be made by way of a simple Statement, or will there be some sort of Order before the House? Will the agreement of the two Houses be asked before any decision is taken?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, the Government are going to state their policy in this matter, and I think that when that statement is made the noble Lord will have his answer.

§ EARL AMHERST
My Lords, if it is true that the transfer of routes is the only way to make a Second Force viable, does it not indicate that there is not enough surplus British business going to warrant the formation of a Second Force at all?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
No. my Lords; I would not accept that. In order that the noble Earl may know exactly what the Government are proposing, may I say that the statement that was made on the 1123 Government's policy was the subject of a Press release on August 3 last, and I have put copies of that statement in the Library.

§ EARL AMHERST
My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that the transfer of some £6 million worth of routes to this new Corporation as a free gift, having regard to the fact that these routes were built up by public money, is really robbing Peter to pay Paul? And bearing in mind that Peter is owned by all of us, the taxpayers, would not the noble Lord agree that it might be wise to consider whether the taxpayers should be reimbursed for this, possibly in the shape of a loan?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, surely we cannot make this the subject of a debate at the moment. May I simply reply to the noble Earl that it was a matter of agreement between the Parties, I think, and on all sides, that there should be a second air line in accordance with the Edwards Committee recommendations. If you are going to have such a second airline, or Third Force or whatever you like to call it, surely it should be a viable one, and one that can hold its own in the world.

§ EARL AMHERST
My Lords, does the noble Lord really mean that to make it viable it is necessary to hive-off routes from the Corporations?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, surely this is really a matter to be debated. It is not a matter to which it is easy to give definite answers in a question and answer procedure.

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, can the noble Lord explain what he means by saying that this is a matter to be debated? Do I gather now that the two Houses of Parliament will be given a proposal which they can debate before a final decision is made, or are they to be presented with a fait accompli?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, it is up to the House itself—it is a matter for my noble friend—to decide what it will debate. All the Government can do is to state their policy. It is then a matter for the House to decide whether it will debate it.

§ LORD WYNNE-JONES
My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us whether the 1124 short period to which he refers is a small fraction of the five weeks remaining? We understand that the word "instant" is not liked by the present Government, but one would hope that "soon" might be a very small fraction of five weeks.

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, I hope so, too.