HL Deb 28 May 1970 vol 310 cc1165-7
LORD LEATHERLAND

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government by how many million pounds the taxation on personal incomes in 1969 exceeded that in 1964; and by how many million pounds wages and salaries in 1969 exceeded those in 1964.]

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, in 1969 taxes paid on total personal income were £2,372 million greater than in 1964; wages and salaries were £6,385 million greater. The tax figure given covers taxes on all forms of incomes, and so should properly be compared, not with wages and salaries, but with total personal incomes, including National Insurance benefits, which were £10,820 million greater in 1969 than in 1964.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

My Lords, is this the Administration that forecast they would be able to fulfil their programme without any increase in taxation?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, the wit of the noble Lord's supplementary escapes me, I am afraid.

LORD LEATHERLAND

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his very enlightening and satisfactory Answer. Is he aware that it will give great satisfaction throughout the country, especially to wage and salary earners? Would it not be in the interests of the nation if as wide publicity as possible were given to these enlightening figures?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, does the noble Lord wish to pursue that point before I reply?

LORD CARRINGTON

No, my Lords; I hope the noble Lord will answer that question first.

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, what I thought would be relevant, too, is not only the taxation increase, but the fact that the number of roads, hospitals and schools and also other social benefits were increased. It is further true that during that time we increased our exports in two years by some 24 per cent., and had it not been for our fiscal policy that undoubtedly would not have been possible.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in Australia the sort of Question which the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, has asked, and the sort of Question which the noble Viscount, Lord Addison, is about to ask is called a "Dorothy Dix", the definition of which is a question inspired by a Minister who wants to take some credit before he disappears into oblivion, and that it is usually greeted with the jeers it deserves?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord. I am sure it must be most disappointing that the figure which the Opposition use so often in their propaganda is seen to be not quite so certain as they try to make out.

LORD BYERS

My Lords, is it not a fact that it is all very well for the people who have had these vast wage increases, but the people suffering are the ones who have not the power to extract them, and these are the people we should worry about?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, I quite agree; and that of course hag some relevance to the Order which will be moved later to-day about supplementary benefits.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, in thanking the noble Lord for the instructive figures which he has given us, may I ask whether he could add a commentary or explanation as to whether they are in real terms, or whether these figures are in terms of a devalued pound?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, I was comparing like with like. Both the taxes and the personal incomes are in money terms.

LORD BYERS

My Lords, is it not a fact that it really is a matter of constant inflation?

LORD WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, would my noble friend not be prepared to wager a pound with any member of the Opposition that he would still be reluctant to lose a pound?

LORD LEATHERLAND

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition probably knows more about the Australian lady Dorothy Dix than I do, but am I in order in asserting now—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

No!

LORD LEATHERLAND

Am I in order in asking now whether it is not a fact that I inspired this Question myself, that I was its complete author and—

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON)

My Lords, I do not know what has come over your Lordships. It might almost be thought that there was going to be an Election. But I think the noble Lord has extracted the maximum advantage from his Question, and the Opposition have done their best, too.