§ LORD ROYLEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will explain the apparent contradiction between the announcement, on the one hand, that the Meat and Livestock Commission are to hold a Conference on November 17 to promote intensive sheep production in this country; and, on the other hand, the reported statement of the Permanent Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, in New Zealand, in September, that "Britain has no intention to expand lamb and mutton production".]
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, there is no contradiction between the two statements. The Permanent Secretary was repeating the Statement made last November by the Minister of Agriculture, that under the Selective Expansion Programme the Government were not aiming to increase mutton and lamb production, but to encourage expansion in the hills and uplands in the longer term to offset the decline in the lowlands. Since the Minister's Statement, the flock has fallen 520 and the aim is to check and offset the decline.
The Meat and Livestock Commission are, of course, responsible for their own programme of work, but their proposed conference, by stimulating discussion and interest in ways of increasing productivity, should be valuable to the industry and entirely in accord with the objectives of the Selective Expansion Programme.
§ LORD ROYLEMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that Answer may I say that he appears to be trying to blind me with science? Will he explain how the reported statement of the Permanent Secretary while in New Zealand, that
Britain has no intention to expand lamb and mutton productionaccords with the Selective Expansion Programme?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I certainly do not intend to blind my noble friend and I suggest that he looks at what I have read. I suspect that he was not listening very intently when I was speaking, because there is no contradiction at all in the light of the explanation that I have given.
§ LORD ROYLEMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he can now effect an introduction beween the Chairman of the Meat and Livestock Commission and the Permanent Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I will try to spell it out in rather simpler language. There was no intended expansion of sheep production in this country as at the date when the Selective Expansion Programme was announced. Since that announcement there has been some decline in the lowlands production, which it is hoped the conference of the Meat and Livestock Commission will help to offset by increased intensive production in the uplands.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, if I correctly understood the noble Lord's earlier reply, he foreshadowed some possibility of Government measures to arrest the regrettable rapid decrease of the sheep population in the hill centres. Is he in a position to indicate in what way relief or help will be given to arrest this deplorable decline?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, as I said, the conference organised by the Meat and Livestock Commission is intended to help the intensive production in the uplands.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether there is any evidence that the reduction in the number of sheep on our hills is due in any way to the increase in forestry there, as is sometimes claimed?
§ LORD BESWICKNo, my Lords. Nor do I think there is any appreciable reduction in the uplands. The difficulty arises in the lowlands where, with the pressure of production of beef, the sheep have been rather squeezed out.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware of the widely held belief that there is a great reduction in the number of sheep on the uplands of Scotland?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I will certainly look at that point, but I do not think is arises on this Question.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLLMy Lords, can the noble Lord let the House know the number of sheep on the uplands now, compared with a year ago and with five years ago? The impression is that there has certainly been a substantial reduction, and I think it would be interesting to know the figures.
§ LORD BESWICKNo, my Lords. I can certainly give the total sheep population over the last four or five years, but not broken down as between the lowlands and the uplands. If the noble Duke wants to put down a Question, I shall be glad to give him the information.
LORD NUNBURNHOLMEMy Lords, can the noble Lord suggest any way of improving the numbers of sheep on the lowland farms, because without sheep the fertility goes down?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I know of the great interest which the noble Lord shows in this subject, but I really do not think this is the moment to go into our policy in this matter.