§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will urgently request the University Grants Committee to inquire into the governance of universities in which ultimate power resides with a majority of non-academic members, a pattern of organisation which has outlived its usefulness, and is patently unable to secure the harmony required by teaching and learning research.]
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, any proposals on the governance of universities are for individual universities, not for Her Majesty's Government.
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, does the noble Lady realise that the expression "self-government" in the case of these universities is somewhat of a misnomer? And is self-appointed minority rule more acceptable in this country than in Africa or Ulster?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, in response to that question, may I quote the words of my honourable friend the Minister of State for Education and Science when she was speaking about this matter? She said that so far as universities are concerned there is no centre of absolute power, in the Chancellors or in the Vice-Chancellors or even in the Senates, and that in this pluralist system decisions are made thoroughly and slowly. Perhaps the noble Lord would accept that.
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, I cannot accept that, because—
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order, order!
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON)My Lords, would the noble Lord give way? The noble Lord will really lose the sympathy of the House if he starts to ask a supplementary question in that way. If he could direct his remarks in the form of a supplementary question, it would help the House.
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, I thank the noble Lady. May I ask what "plurality" means, when the ultimate of the governing body is the council, on which the members of the university staff are in most cases not in a majority?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I think that I shall have to accept the noble Lord's definition of this. I merely suggest to him that my right honourable friend has a different interpretation and says that there is no centre of absolute power. Perhaps if the noble Lord were to initiate a debate on this subject we might follow it through.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, would the noble Baroness not agree that it is quite inappropriate for the University Grants Committee to be invited to interfere with the method of governing any university?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSYes, my Lords, and I apologise to the House for making the suggestion of initiating a debate. I should have said that perhaps the noble Lord would like to pursue this matter in another way.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, would not the Minister agree that the custom of raiding the Diplomatic Service has resulted in the appointment of some very distinguished vice-chancellors of universities, from which the universities have greatly benefited.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that in the enlightened Kingdom of Northumbria the two universities of Durham and Newcastle-upon-Tyne, since the Acts of 1937 and 1963, have both had governing bodies with equal representation of academic and lay members, and that both universities are well satisfied with this situation?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for his intervention. I would agree with him that that is a very enlightened county, because I have some antecedents from that part of the world.