HL Deb 23 July 1969 vol 304 cc1043-59

Interim provisions pending commencement of provisions of Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968 1968 c. 49.

17. Where a court in England or Wales by which a child or young person is found guilty of an offence is satisfied that he resides or will reside in Scotland, the court shall have power, without prejudice to its other powers and notwithstanding anything in section 7 (2) of this Act, to make a probation order in respect of him in accordance with sections 3 and 9 of the Criminal 1948 c. 58. Justice Act 1948.

18. In section 51 (1) of the Act of 1963, for the words "principal Act" there shall be substituted the words "Children and Young Persons Act 1969 in proceedings under section 1 of that Act."

19. In sections 51 (2) of the Act of 1963, for the words from "proposes" to "this Act" there shall be substituted", or a supervision order under the Children and Young Persons Act 1969 has been made in proceedings under section 1 of that Act, proposes to reside or is residing in Scotland" and for the words "specified in the supervision order" there shall be substituted the words "for which the supervision order would have continued in force if it had been allowed to continue in force until it ceased to have effect by the effluxion of time."

20. Where a juvenile court in England or Wales is satisfied that a person who has not attained the age of eighteen and in respect of whom a supervision order made by virtue of section 7 (7) (b) of this Act or section 7A (4) of the Criminal 1949 c. 94. Justice (Scotland) Act 1949 is in force resides or will reside in Scotland, the court may discharge the order and exercise the like powers to make a probation order in accordance with sections 3 and 9 of the Criminal 1948 c. 58. Justice Act 1948 in respect of him as if in the proceedings it had duly found him guilty of the offence in consequence of which the supervision order was made and section 7 (2) of this Act had not been passed: but a probation order made by virtue of this paragraph shall not continue in force after the date on which the discharged supervision order would have ceased to have effect by the effluxion of time.

21.—(1) Where it appears to the local authority to whose care a person is committed by a care order that his parent or guardian resides or will reside in Scotland and that it is appropriate to transfer him to the care of the managers of an approved school in Scotland, the authority shall make a report on the case to the Secretary of State: and thereupon the Secretary of State may, if he thinks fit, make an order transferring the person in question to the care of the managers of such a school. (2) The provisions of the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Acts 1937 to 1963 shall apply to an order made under this paragraph as if it were an approved school order made by a juvenile court in Scotland on the date on which the care order in question was originally made; but notwithstanding anything in section 75 of the said Act of 1937 such an order shall cease to have effect on the date when the care order in question would have ceased to have effect by the effluxion of time and the contributions to be made under section 94 of the said Act of 1937 in respect of the person to whom the order under this paragraph relates shall be made by the authority nominated for the purpose in the order under this paragraph, being the education authority within whose area it appears to the Secretary of State at the time that order is made that his parent or guardian resides or will reside. (3) When a person is received into the care of the managers of an approved school in pursuance of an order under this paragraph, the care order in question shall cease to have effect.

22. If it appears to the Secretary 1937 c. 37. of State that the parent or guardian of a person who has not attained the age of nineteen and is the subject of an approved school order in force under the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act 1937 or such other order as is mentioned in subsection (1) or subsection (3) of section 87 of that Act resides or will reside in the area of a local authority in England or Wales, the Secretary of State may make an order committing that person to the care of that authority; and an order under this paragraph shall have effect as if it were a care order made on the date on which the approved school or other order was made, but as if sections 20 (2) and 21 (5) of this Act were omitted.")—(Lord Stonham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 5 [Minor and consequential amendments of enactments]:

5.37 p.m.

LORD STONHAM moved Amendment No. 61:

Page 86, line 22, at end insert— ("3A. In section 46 of the Act of 1933, after subsection (1) there shall be inserted the following subsection— (1A) If a notification that the 1957 c. 29. accused desires to plead guilty without appearing before the court is received by the clerk of a court in pursuance of section 1 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1957 and the court has no reason to believe that the accused is a child or young person, then, if he is a child or young person he shall be deemed to have attained the age of seventeen for the purposes of subsection (1) of this Section in its application to the proceedings in question.")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 61. Section 46 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 deals with the jurisdiction of juvenile courts and adult magistrates' courts to hear charges against children and young persons. In general, a charge against a young person can be dealt with only by a juvenile court. But where, in the course of proceedings, an adult court discovers that the accused is under the age of 17 it may, under proviso (c) to Section 46 (1), continue to deal with the case if it thinks fit. Certain young persons may plead guilty by post; the court has no means of finding out if they are under 17. Section 99 of the 1933 Act deals with the situation where a person brought before a court (these words are important) is discovered to be under the age of 17 only after the case has been disposed of. In such a case it secures that the decision of an adult court, reached in good faith, is not invalidated by the subsequent discovery that the accused was a young person.

The Magistrates' Courts Act 195? provides that persons charged with certain summary offences and summoned to appear before an adult magistrates' court may plead guilty by post. The Amendment deals with the situation where, owing to a mistake as to his age, a young person is summoned to appear before an adult magistrates' court and pleads guilty by post under the 1957 Act. Alternatively the adult court is unlikely to discover that the accused is, in fact, under the age of 17 and proviso (c) to Section 46 (1) of the 1933 Act is unlikely to be of any relevance. The court is likely, in good faith, to dispose of the case in the belief that the accused is over the age of 17. In that event, Section 99 of the 1933 Act is of no avail to prevent the magistrates' decision being invalidated by the subsequent discovery that the accused was a young person. Section 99 is in terms of persons brought before a court which just do not fit persons who have pleaded guilty by post.

The Amendment provides that in the case of a plea of guilty by post by a child or young person where the court has no reason to believe that the accused is under the age of 17 he shall be deemed to be over that age, with the result that the case can properly be dealt with by the court. The Amendment does not enable an adult court to deal with a young person who pleads guilty by post if it so happens that the court has some reason to believe that he is under the age of 17. It operates only where the court deals with the case, in good faith, on the footing that the accused is an adult.

LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR

My Lords, this seems a perfectly sensible addition to the Bill. I think your Lordships will welcome it.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD STONHAM moved Amendment No. 62:

Page 90, line 7, at end insert—

("The Criminal Justice (Scotland) 1949 c.49. Act 1949

23A. In section 7 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1949, after the words 'that the offender' in subsection (1) and 'that the probationer' in subsection (2) there shall be inserted the words 'has attained the age of seventeen and',

23B. After section 7 of the said Act of 1949 there shall be inserted Further provisions as to probation orders relating to persons residing or formerly residing in England

7A.—(1) Where the court by which a probation order is made under section 2 of this Act or subsection (6) of this Section is satisfied that the person to whom the order relates is under the age of seventeen and resides or will reside in England, subsection (2) of the said section 2 shall not apply to the order but the order shall name the petty sessions area in which that person resides or will reside and the court shall send notification of the order to the clerk to the justices for that area.

(2) Where a probation order has been made under section 2 of this Act or subsection (6) of this section and the court which made the order or the appropriate court is satisfied that the person to whom the order relates is under the age of seventeen and proposes to reside or is residing in England, the power of that court to amend the order under Schedule 2 to this Act shall include power, without summoning him and without his consent, to insert in the order the name of the petty sessions area aforesaid; and where the court exercises the power conferred on it by virtue of this subSection it shall send notification of the order to the clerk aforesaid.

(3) A court which sends a notification to a clerk in pursuance of the foregoing provisions of this section shall send to him with it three copies of the probation order in question and such other documents and information relating to the case as it considers likely to be of assistance to the juvenile court mentioned in the following subsection.

(4) It shall be the duty of the clerk to whom a notification is sent in pursuance of the foregoing provisions of this section to refer the notification to a juvenile court acting for the petty sessions area named in the order, and on such a reference the court—

  1. (a) may make a supervision order under the Children and Young Persons Act 1969 in respect of a person to whom the notification relates; and
  2. (b) if it does not make such an order, shall dismiss the case.

(5) A supervision order made by virtue of the foregoing subsection shall not include a requirement authorised by section 12 of the said Act of 1969 unless the supervised person is before the court when the supervision order is made, and in relation to a supervision order made by virtue of that subsection—

  1. (a) section 15 of that Act shall have effect as if in subsection (5) paragraph (b) and the words following it were omitted; and
  2. (b) section 17 (a) of that Act shall have effect as if the second reference to the supervision order were a reference to the probation order in consequence of which the supervision order is made;
and when a juvenile court disposes of a case referred to it in pursuance of the foregoing subsection, the probation order in consequence of which the reference was made shall cease to have effect.

(6) The court which, in pursuance of subsection (1) of section 73 of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968, 1968 c. 49. considers a case referred to it in consequence of a notification under paragraph (i) of that subsection (which relates to a case in which a person subject to a supervision order made by virtue of this section moves to Scotland)—

  1. (a) may, if it is of opinion that the person to whom the notification relates should continue to 1049 be under supervision, make a probation order in respect of him for a period specified in the order; and
  2. (b) if it does not make such an order, shall dismiss the case; and when the court disposes of a case in pursuance of this subsection the supervision order aforesaid shall cease to have effect.

(7) Notwithstanding any provision to the contrary in section 2 of this Act, a probation order made by virtue of the foregoing subsection which includes only requirements having the like effect as any requirement or provision of the supervision order to which the notification relates may be made without summoning the person and without his consent, and shall specify a period of supervision which shall expire not later than the date on which that supervision order would have ceased to have effect by the effluxion of time: and, except as aforesaid, Part I of this Act shall apply to that probation order.

(8) In this section "petty sessions area" has the same meaning as in the said Act of 1969.")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the reason for this Amendment is that when Clause 7 (2) is brought into operation, probation orders will no longer be possible in England or Wales for those under 17. Under the Social Work (Scotland) Act probation orders will be possible from the age of 16 and, exceptionally, for those under that age who are prosecuted with the authority of the Lord Advocate. The existing law in Section 7 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1949 deals with probation orders made by a Scottish court in relation to persons residing, or about to reside, in England or Wales and provides for notification of probation orders to the appropriate English authority. It is necessary to confine this provision to persons who have attained the age of 17 and the Amendment inserts a new paragraph 23 (A) which does that.

In the case of persons under 17 it is necessary to enable them to be made subject to a supervision order in England or Wales, and this is provided for in the new section that is to be inserted in the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1949 by my proposed new paragraph 23 (B). Subsections (1) to (5) of the new section deal with the move to England or Wales. In short, the Scottish court is empowered, where it is satisfied that the person under 17 resides or will reside in England or Wales, to make a probation order naming the petty sessions area in which the person will reside and is required to send notification of the order to be sent to the clerk of the justices; and he refers the notification to the juvenile court acting for the named petty sessions area. The juvenile court is empowered to make a supervision order under the Bill or to dismiss the case. Once the juvenile court takes action the Scottish probation order will cease to have effect. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, with this Amendment, No. 63, I should like to discuss Nos. 64 and 65; and 78 and 79 in Schedule 7. These Amendments are primarily of a technical character, and you may feel that I can leave it at that. I beg to move.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

If no noble Lord objects, I will take Amendments Nos. 63, 64 and 65 together.

Amendments moved—

Page 90, line 32, leave out ("from 'in the care of' to").

Page 90, line 33, leave out ("the subject of a").

Page 90, line 39, after ("1958") insert ("after the words 'that is to say' there shall be inserted the words '"approved school" has the same meaning as in the Children and Young Persons 1937c. 37. '(Scotland) Act 1937; ' and").—(Lord Stonham.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 66.

Amendment moved— Page 91, line 44, leave out ("(a) to (c) of section 1 (3)") and insert ("(b) or (c) of section 7 (7)").—(Lord Stonham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, the new paragraph 38A and 38B which I propose should be inserted in Schedule 5 make Amendments to the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1960 consequential on the substitution by the Bill of care orders in place of fit person orders. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 92, line 4, at end insert—

("The Mental Health (Scotland) 1960c. 61. Act 1960

38A. In section 10 (1)(a) of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1960, for sub-paragraph (ii) there shall be substituted the following subparagraph:—

38B. In section 46 of the said Act of 1960, for paragraph (b) there shall be substituted the following paragraph:—

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

5.44 p.m.

LORD STONHAM moved Amendment No. 68:

Page 93, line 20, at end insert— ("47A. For subsection (3) of section 57 of the Act of 1963 there shall be substituted the following subsection— (3) The said sections 39 and 49 shall extend to Scotland and the said sections 46 and 54 shall extend to England and Wales, but—

  1. (a) references to a court in the said sections 39 and 49 shall not include a court in Scotland; and
  2. (b) references to a court in the said sections 46 and 54 shall not include a court in England or Wales.")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the Amendment to Section 57 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1963 which I am proposing should be inserted by this new paragraph 47A is consequential on the Amendments to Section 49 of the 1933 Act made by Clause 10. Your Lordships will recall that at present the law on restriction on publicity about proceedings in juvenile courts is the same on both sides of the Border. Section 57 of the 1963 Act deals with a cross-Border application by providing that in the English Act "court" shall include a Scottish court and that in the Scottish Act "court" shall include an English court. Now that the law will be different on the two sides of the Border this is no longer a practicable approach. The Amendment deals with the situation first by restricting the English enactment to the proceedings of the English court and the Scottish enactment to the proceedings of the Scottish court, and secondly, by providing that both sets of enactments shall be law throughout Great Britain. It will therefore be an offence for a Scottish newspaper to report something about English court proceedings if it is an offence for an English newspaper to do so, and vice versa. My Lords, that summary sounded very clear to me, and I hope that it is clear to your Lordships; but I am very much reminded of the story of the chap who objected to making porridge for one. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD STONHAM moved Amendment No. 69:

Page 94, line 9, at end insert—

51A.—(1) In section 72 of the said Act of 1968, after subsection (1) 1968 c. 49.

there shall be inserted the following subsection—

(1A) The juvenile court in England or Wales to which notification of a supervision requirement is sent under this section may make a supervision order in respect of the person to whom the notification relates but, notwithstanding anything in section 76 (1) of this Act, shall not include in the order a requirement authorised by section 12 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1969 unless that person is before the court when the supervision order is made; and in relation to a supervision order made by virtue of this subsection—-

  1. (a) section 15 of that Act shall have effect as if subsection (2) were omitted; and
  2. (b) section 17 of that Act shall have effect as if in paragraph (a) the references to three years and the date on which the order was originally made were respectively references to one year and the date on which the said notification was sent and as if in paragraph (ft) the words from "the order was" to "and" were omitted.

(2) In subsection (2) of that section, after the word "court" there shall be inserted the words "in Northern Ireland".

(3) In subsection (4) of that section for the words from "includes" to "1963" there shall be substituted the words", in relation to England and Wales, has the same meaning as in the said Act of 1969".

51B.—(1) In section 73 of the said Act of 1968, in subsection (1), after the word "reporter", in the second place where it occurs, there shall be inserted the following words—

  1. "(i) in the case of a supervision order made by virtue of section 7A (4) of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1949, to notify the appropriate court and to transmit to that court all documents and certified copies of documents relating to the case which the reporter has received by virtue of section 76 of this Act;
  2. (ii) in any other case", and at the end of that subsection there shall be inserted the following paragraph—

In this subsection "the appropriate court" means the sheriff having jurisdiction in the area in which the child proposes to reside or is residing or, where the original probation order was imposed by the High Court of Justiciary, that court.

(2) After subsection (1) of that section there shall be inserted the following subsection—

(1A) Where a court in England or Wales is satisfied that a child in respect of whom the court proposes to make a supervision order is residing or proposes to reside in Scotland the court may make the order notwithstanding anything in subsection (1) of section 18 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1969 (which relates to residence of the supervised person in England or Wales); and where the court makes a supervision order by virtue of this subsection—

  1. (a) the areas to be named in the order in pursuance of subsection (2) (a) of the said section 18 shall be those in which the court is sitting;
  2. (b) the order may require the supervised person to comply with directions of the supervisor with respect to his departure to Scotland, and any such requirement shall, for the purposes of sections 15 and 16 of that Act (which relate to the variation and discharge of supervision orders), be deemed to be included in the order in pursuance of section 12 (2) of that Act; and
  3. (c) the court shall send notification of the order as mentioned in paragraph (b) of the foregoing subsection and the provisions of that subsection relating to the duty of the reporter shall apply accordingly.

(3) In subsection (2) of that section for the word "subsection" there shall be substituted the words "provisions of this section."

51C. In section 74 of the said Act of 1968, after subsection (5) there shall be inserted the following subsection—

(6) An order under this section committing a child to the care of a local authority shall have effect as if it were a care order under the Children and Young Persons Act 1969, but as if sections 20 (2) and 21 (5) of that Act and in section 20 (3) of that Act paragraph (a) and the words 'in any other case' in paragraph (b) were omitted.

51D.—(1) In section 75 of the said Act of 1968, in subsection (1) after the word "order" there shall be inserted the words "or an order under section 74 (3) of this Act relating to a training school".

(2) In subsection (2) of that section, for the words from "under", where it first occurs, to "1944"there shall be substituted the words "by a care order (other than an interim order) within the meaning of the Children and Young Persons Act 1969 or an order under section 74 (3) of this Act" and after the word "1947"there shall be inserted the words "or the said section 74 (3)".

(3) In subsection (3) of that section, after the words 'training school order" there shall be inserted the words "under the said section 74 (3) or".

51E. In section 76 (4) of the said Act of 1968, after the word "order" there shall be inserted the words "or order under section 74 (3) of this Act relating to a training school".

5IF. In section 94 (1) of the said Act of 1968, in the definition of "supervision order" after the word "1963" there shall be inserted the words "and includes a supervision order made under the Children and Young Persons Act 1969.")

The noble Lord said: These Amendments to Schedule 5 amend Part VII of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968. That Part of the Act deals with transfers between Scotland and England and Wales and Northern Ireland. So far as England and Wales are concerned, it provides for a transfer between the new system under the 1968 Act and the existing English system. It is now necessary to amend it to provide for transfer between the new Scottish system and the new English system. The general object is to make a child subject to the country to which he goes to the nearest equivalent to the order to which he was subject in the country which he leaves. I beg to move Amendment No. 69.

LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR

My Lords, when one sees an Amendment of this length at the end of the Report stage of a Bill, the only possible comment one can make is that the Statute Book would be a great deal shorter if only Scottish law could be assimilated into the English law or vice versa.

LORD RAGLAN

My Lords, may I make the further comment that, if we adopt the system of provinces referred to in the Maud Report, I hope that they will not each become so independent that they will each demand a Children and Young Persons Bill of their own.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

5.48 p.m.

LORD STONHAM moved Amendments Nos. 70 and 71.

Page 94, line 14, at end insert ("and 'Schedule 2, paragraphs 7 and 13'").

Line 25, at end insert— ("53A. In Schedule 2 to the said Act of 1968, in paragraph 10, to section 50 of the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act 1937 as substituted by that paragraph, there shall be added the following subsection— (2) The provisions of the foregoing subsection so far as they relate to section 54 of this Act shall extend to England and Wales.")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I should like to take Amendments 70 and 71 together. They are consequential on the substitution of a new subsection for Section 57 (3) of the Children and Young Persons Act 1963. They concern paragraphs 7, 10 and 13 of Schedule 2 of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968. Paragraph 7 concerns an Amendment to Section 46 of the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act 1937. Paragraph 10 contains a reference to Section 54 of the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act 1937 and Section 49 of the Act of 1933. Paragraph 13 concerns an Amendment to Section 54 of the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act 1937, and Section 57 (3) of the Children and Young Persons Act 1963 as substituted by the Bill. I beg to move.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, if no noble Lord objects I will put Amendments 70 and 71 together.

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, as your Lordships might expect. Amendment No. 72 is a minor drafting Amendment to paragraph 54 in Schedule 8 to the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968. The substitution of the word "or" for "and" is to correct an error, and the insertion of the phrase "where these words secondly occur" clarifies the position of the Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 95, line 46, at end insert— ("61 A. In Schedule 8 to the said Act of 1968, in paragraph 54, for the word "and" where that word first occurs there shall be substituted the word "or" and after the words ""by virtue of"" there shall be inserted the words "where those words secondly occur".")—Lord Stonham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 6 [Repeals]:

LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 73.

Amendment moved—

Page 100, line 55, at end insert— ("In section 17, in the definition of 'fit person order' the words 'the Children and Young Persons Act, 1933 or'").—(Lord Stonham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 74. Your Lordships will be glad to know that this is purely a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 102, line 9. after ("home'") insert ("and")—(Lord Stonham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 75.

Amendment moved—

Page 103, line 9, at end insert— ("In section 65 (5). the words 'and 53 (1)'") .—(Lord Stonham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD STONHAM moved Amendment No. 76:

Page 103, line 38, column 3, at beginning insert— ("In section 72 (2), the words 'of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 to 1963 or as the case may be', the word 'respectively' and the words 'to a supervision order within the meaning of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 or'. In section 73 (2), the word 'juvenile'. In section 74, in subsection (3) the words 'in England or Wales or' and 'if he thinks fit' and the words from 'an approved' to 'be' where it first occurs, in subsection (4) the words from 'the Children' to 'be of', the words 'an approved school or' in the first, second and third places where they occur, the word 'of' and 'in' following those words in the first and third of those places respectively and the words 'section 71 of the said Act of 1933 or' and 'section 90 of the said Act of 1933 or under', and in subsection (5) the words 'of the Acts of 1933 to 1963 or as the case may be', the words 'of a local authority or as the case may be' and the words 'those Acts or'. In section 75, in subsection (1) the words 'the Secretary of State or' and 'approved school or', and in subsection (3) the words 'approved school or'. In section 76, in subsections (1) and (2) the word 'juvenile' wherever it occurs, and in subsection (4) the words 'approved school or' and 'of the approved school or'. Section 77 (1) (6).").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the repeals dealt with in this Amendment affect Part V of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968 and are consequential on the Amendments to that part of the Act already made by Amendments to Schedule 5. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD STONHAM moved Amendment No. 77: Page 103, line 39, column 3, after ("18") insert (", 21").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment repeals paragraph 21 of the Eighth Schedule to the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968. That paragraph added a new subsection to Section 9 of the Criminal Justice Act 1948 (which deals with the making of probation orders by English courts in relation to persons resident in Scotland) by providing that such an order should not be made in respect of a person who has not attained the age of 16. This is consequential on the fact that probation in Scotland for those under 16 would be exceptional. Now that probation orders are being abolished in England or Wales for persons of that age, the Amendment to the 1948 Act is no longer necessary. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 7 [Sections 1 to 6 and 14 of the Children Act 1958 as amended]:

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 78.

Amendment moved— Page 104, line 49, leave out ("the subject of") and insert ("in the care of any person in compliance with").—(Lord Stonham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 79.

Amendment moved— Page 105, line 1, after ("requirement") insert ("or by virtue of a fit person order or while he is in an approved school or is teemed for the purposes of the … Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act, 1937, to be under the care of the managers of an approved school").—(Lord Stonham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD STONHAM moved Amendments Nos. 80 to 83:

Page 105, line 37, at end insert ("and been required by virtue of the following provisions of this section to give notice under subsection (5A) of this Section in respect of those premises.")

Page 106, line 9, leave out from ("removed") to the end of line 13.

Page 106, line 14, at beginning insert ("Subject to the provisions of the following subsection").

Page 106, line 20, at end insert— (5B) A person need not give the notice required by the preceding subSection in consequence of his ceasing to maintain foster children at any premises if, at the time he so ceases, he intends within twenty-seven days again to maintain any of them as a foster child at those premises; but if he subsequently abandons that intention or the said period expires without his having given effect to it he shall give the said notice within forty-eight hours of that event.")

The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 80, which we have already discussed, and Nos. 81, 82 and 83; and I should be grateful if they could be taken together. As I shell not be troubling your Lordships again, I would thank noble Lords very much for their help and co-operation over this Bill. I express my regret to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, because he was displeased with me over the last Amendment we discussed. My regret is deepened by the fact that I honestly and genuinely disagree with him, and think he is wrong; but it seems to me unfortunate that we were not lucky in coming together on that Amendment.

LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR

My Lords, I would respond in the friendliest way to what the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has said and congratulate him on having got this long Bill through Committee and Report stage. He will be aware that the Opposition are not in agreement with all the provisions of this Bill. Nevertheless, there is a great deal of good in it and we hope, I think I must say against hope, that it will be altogether successful. We appreciate that it cannot reach the Statute Book until after the Recess. We look forward to the possibility of further discussion in detail on Third Reading. But the noble Lord certainly deserves the congratulations of the whole House for the way he has conducted these debates.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

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