§ 2.33 p.m.
§ Viscount MASSEREENE and FERRARDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can confirm that there are approximately 500,000 tenants of council houses with incomes of £2,000 a year or more.]
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY of HOUSING and LOCAL GOVERNMENT (Lord Kennet)My Lords, it has been estimated on the basis of the 1967 Family Expenditure Survey that there were then about 60,000 council tenants in Great Britain with gross incomes of £2,000 or more a year. I know of no reliable estimate which is more recent than this, nor of any estimated figure which is as high as the noble Lord has mentioned in his Question.
§ Viscount MASSEREENE and FERRARDMy Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he realise that there are many retired people and poor people who have put all their life savings into one or two houses which are now rent-controlled? Does he realise that the rents from these houses probably compromise the whole of the incomes of 257 such people? May I further ask the Minister, does he therefore think it right that these people should through their rates subsidise housing for far more affluent, and perhaps prodigal, members of the community?
§ Lord KENNETMy Lords, housing finance is a complicated subject indeed. Some council tenants, especially those in older houses where everything is paid off, subsidise other council tenants. Ratepayers subsidise council tenants, And the Government, I would remind the noble Viscount, subsidises owner-occupiers to about the same extent as it subsidises council tenants in the form of tax rebates and the option mortgage scheme.
§ Lord GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, is it not desirable that there should be a mixture of persons in different income brackets on local authority housing estates; and is it not a fact that many tenants pay the full economic rent for local authority housing?
§ Lord KENNETMy Lords, the latter statement of the noble Lord is a fact; many tenants pay more than the full economic rent, as I have just explained. One can easily see the point of the suggestion in the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary questions.
§ Lord STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, would the noble Lord be good enough to ask his noble friend Lord Hughes whether the statement in the last part of his reply applies to Scotland?
§ Lord KENNETIn due course, my Lords.
§ Viscount MASSEREENE and FERRARDMy Lords, might I point out to the Minister—
§ Viscount MASSEREENE and FERRARDMy Lords, I am sorry. May I ask the Minister whether he realises that, although there are 60, 000 council house tenants with incomes of £2, 000 or more, there are many hundreds of thousands of council houses where the aggregate income of the whole family is more than that?
§ Lord KENNETYes, my Lords; that is so.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, may I ask the Minister to reject any idea that we should return to the household means test?
§ Viscount MASSEREENE and FERRARDMy Lords, does the Minister understand that I am trying to help the genuinely poor people who are in the queue for council houses?
§ Lord KENNETYes, my Lords; I do not doubt it. But it seems to the Government that the best way to dc that is through rent rebate schemes, and it is done in that way.