§ Baroness STOCKSMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which s: ands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the precise nature of their commitment to the Anglo-French Concorde project and what would be the further cost should they withdraw at this stage from such a commitment.]
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, our commitment is based on the agreement entered into between the British and French Governments on November 29, 1962, but this does not involve either Government in a commitment to pursue the programme to completion regardless of circumstances. The costs to Her Majesty's Government of withdrawing from the project would depend upon the circumstances giving rise to the withdrawal, and therefore I am unable to give an estimate.
§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGERMy Lords, can my noble friend tell us whether, if we were to withdraw at the moment, there would be any liability other than the expenditure which has already been incurred?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I am sure that my noble friend knows that any industrial commercial project of this kind involves contracts with commercial firms, with all of which there is an agreement; and if a contract is cancelled consequences would flow.
§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGERMy Lords, was it not very imprudent of 259 Her Majesty's Government to become involved in expenditure of this scale with No idea on what terms they could withdraw from the commitment?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I am not quite sure who my noble friend is criticising. The agreement which was entered into with the French Government to embark on this project was dated, as I have just said, November, 1962, and it was therefore concluded by another Government. Any criticism arising should not therefore be directed to any Minister answering for the present Government. As for the rest, as I have said, any commercial undertaking of any kind inevitably must involve the honouring of contracts.
§ Baroness STOCKSMy Lords, I have one supplementary question. I should very much like to know the answer to it, though maybe I shall not get it. I should like to know whether members of Her Majesty's Government would be bitterly disappointed if they learned that, for some reason other than sabotage, the Concorde prototype had spontaneously combusted in its hangar?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, the supplementary question is so carefully contrived that I think I should be doing it an injustice if I gave it a spontaneous answer.
§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGERMy Lords, I should like to come back to a slightly more substantial aspect of this matter. I should like to ask Her Majesty's Government what prospect they have of selling a sufficient number of these machines to recoup themselves within a reasonable period for this enormous and continually expanding expenditure.
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, the prospects for selling this aircraft are good, and if things go well there is every prospect of recouping the economic cost of the production aircraft. But it has long been agreed, and has been stated before now, that it will not be possible to recover the cost of research and development.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, are we not in danger of doing the same sort of disservice and damage to the Concorde as was done to the VC10?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I am sure that those who are engaged in 260 giving a good part of their lives to the building up of this engineering project will be delighted to hear what the noble Lord said.
§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGERMy Lords, is there not a serious question that even supposing a sufficient number of these planes were sold the surcharge necessary for passengers who wish to travel by them as compared with the cost of travelling by existing subsonic aircraft will be so high that it will be very difficult to fill these Concordes? Have Her Majesty's Government considered this?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, not only have Her Majesty's Government considered it, but some professional people have spent the best part of their working week producing graphs and curves on this very problem, and the results of their research do not bear out what my noble friend says.
§ Lord THORNEYCROFTMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there are many people in this country who feel immensely proud that, not as a single nation but in co-operation with our French allies, on a Continental basis, we are capable of going through a great technical adventure of this character?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, if I may say so, what is needed here is a cool and rational approach. I agree absolutely with what the noble Lord says. On the other hand, if the thing became hopelessly uneconomic, or if the aircraft had no prospect of getting a certificate of airworthiness, we should have to judge such a situation when it arose.
§ Lord WAKEFIELD Of KENDALMy Lords, will Her Majesty's Government be able in the near future to evaluate the immense advantages of what might be described as the side effects from this Concorde project? Are the Government not aware that there are many advantages deriving from it which may not be easily assessable, and will it be possible in the near future to give some evaluation of some of the advantages that are obtained from this immensely valuable project?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, that is true. Again, the noble Lord ought not to press that question too hard, lest he drives me a little nearer to my noble friend behind me. What he says is right. 261 It is true, as my noble friends may say, and indeed they have said in the propaganda that has been put out in the organisation with which my noble friend is quite rightly connected, that the sum of money to which we are committed to the end of the present programme, which runs to some £155 million, if spent in other directions could also reap benefits.
§ Lord CONESFORDMy Lords, may I ask this question? In estimating the prospects of sales of these machines, are Her Majesty's Government assuming that they will be allowed to fly at supersonic speeds over civilised countries, or that they will not be so allowed?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I am not quite sure what the legal effect is of the phrase which the noble Lord put at the end of the supplementary. I can tell him that all calculations have been made on the basis that this aircraft can fly overland and also on the basis that overflights of land would not be possible.
§ Lord STRATHCARRONMy Lords, as we are not able to go to the Moon, will the noble Lord not agree that it is a matter of some pride that we have such a thing as a Concorde in this country?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that there is a good case to be made out for saying that this is rather more useful than money that is being spent in going to the Moon.
§ A Noble Lord: Shame!
§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGERMy Lords, my noble friend misunderstood me. I did not make a statement. If I had done, I should have been out of order. I asked a question whether Her Majesty's Government had considered the prospect of getting a sufficient surcharge payment from passengers for travelling on this aeroplane as compared with the cost of travelling on a conventional aeroplane, and I understood my noble friend's Answer to be that he has had professional advice that this will be satisfactory. May I ask whether Her Majesty's Government are accepting this advice at face value.
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I was not trying to evade the noble Lady's question. I was trying to tell her that this is one 262 aspect of this matter which has had particular attention, and the advice is that a surcharge could be made, and indeed should be made, and that potential passengers would be very pleased to pay it.
§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGERMy Lords, one final supplementary question. Will my noble friend accept that the motivation behind these questions is a very real public concern that, what with the noise and other drawbacks of this instrument, there is grave doubt as to whether this expenditure is justified?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, again I do not want to comment on the latter part of the noble Lady's question, but on the first part I may say that I am aware of this public concern and I think it would be a bad thing in a democratic country if an expenditure of this order were not subject to quite rigorous questioning.
§ The Lord PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shackleton)My Lords, I think we have perhaps had enough on the Concorde.