HL Deb 08 July 1969 vol 303 cc898-900

2.42 p.m.

LORD INGLEWOOD

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will amend item number 202 in the Index of Retail Prices so as to include all wines.]

THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD BROWN)

My Lords, the expenditure of households on table wines is already included in the weight given to wines in the Index, as the noble Lord is probably aware. Because an item is not separately priced in the Index it does not mean that it fails to affect it. It is sufficient to price a selection of items chosen so that their price movements, taken together, can be regarded as representative of the price movements of goods and services as a whole. In this instance, movements in the price of all wines are at present represented by movements in the prices of sherry. However, the Department of Employment and Productivity is looking into the possibility of including table wines among the items priced for the Index of Retail Prices.

LORD INGLEWOOD

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply, which is very obscure, but I think in fact meets my point.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord this question? Is there not a danger of public confidence in the objectivity of the Index being undermined by the seeming omission of items in common use which suffered an impost in price in the last Budget in terms affecting the cost of living?

LORD BROWN

My Lords, I think this House is well aware that the Index and the whole structure of the standard of living figures is a complex statistical exercise calling for considerable erudition. If noble Lords press me on this matter, I shall retreat and offer to write to them. I do not think the public normally has a great deal of confidence in statistics because they do not understand them, and I have no doubt that further airing of this point in this House would not improve that confidence.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, would the noble Lord take this point? If the Index were explained in such a way that the public could see the effect upon it of new tax imposts, possibly the public's confidence in these figures would be increased.

LORD BROWN

My Lords, having had a brief education prior to answering the Question to-day, I take leave to doubt whether the time is available thoroughly to educate the public in this matter. I think it is a very difficult task indeed.

LORD BALOGH

My Lords, does not my noble friend think that the inclusion of table wines as a matter of common usage would undermine confidence in the Index?

LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE

My Lords, before the noble Lord answers that point, may I ask him whether the number of persons using table wines is so small that the introduction of that element would altogether mislead the great mass of people?

LORD BROWN

My Lords, the point is—also in answer to my noble friend—that the study which is going on now in the Department of Employment and Productivity is precisely to come to a conclusion as to whether the inclusion of prices of selected table wines in the Index is statistically sound or not. This is the question which is being posed and to which I hope an answer will be forthcoming.

LORD INGLEWOOD

My Lords, following the supplementary question of the noble Lord opposite, can the Minister confirm that price movements of whisky and gin are already included in the Index. and calculated regularly? Surely the inclusion of normal table wines, which are much less expensive, would not under-mine public confidence?

LORD BROWN

My Lords, I am very sorry, but I do not know whether whisky and gin are included. I will inform the noble Lord in writing.

LORD LEATHERLAND

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he can assure us that the Index figures are suffi- ciently flexible to allow for huge increases in indirect taxation, such as added value, which the Party opposite are proposing to put into operation if they come to power?

LORD BROWN

My Lords, the Index refers to current prices, not to future prices.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, am I to understand that these wines are included in the standard of living Index related to old age pensioners?

LORD BROWN

My Lords, the standard of living Index is an index figure relating to the current cost of living. It is not affected by consideration as to whether a person is old or young.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

Then is the answer in the affirmative, that wines are related to old age pensions?

LORD BROWN

My Lords, the answer is as I gave it.

LORD LEATHERLAND

My Lords, can my noble friend clarify this a little? Is there not a separate Index figure for old age pensioners, the one I recently saw published in the Ministry of Labour Gazette?

LORD BROWN

My Lords, that is another question.