HL Deb 20 November 1968 vol 297 cc846-8
LORD MAELOR

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have received reports of considerable confusion in the voters' minds during the recent referendum in Wales on Sunday Opening, caused by the use of Welsh and English of alternate lines on the voting paper, and by the layout of the panels and the way in which the answer was required; and whether they can give an estimate of the number of spoiled votes.]

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, we have received no such reports. As regards the number of spoiled ballot papers, there is no central record. We are collecting the information, and when it has been received we will communicate it to the noble Lord.

LORD MAELOR

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her reply. I am not quite satisfied with the Answer, because I can give her facts and figures. In the county of Denbigh—

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON)

My Lords, my noble friend should ask a question.

LORD MAELOR

Is my noble friend aware that in Denbigh there were 470 spoiled votes, and that in fact 1,500 were technically spoiled, except that the presiding officer could presume to know what was the intention of the voter. I must say that I am not surprised. I have here a copy of the ballot paper.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Speech!

LORD MAELOR

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that I have this copy, and that it is most confusing? There is an unnecessary question in English and Welsh at the top: "Are you for or against the opening of licensed premises in the county of Denbigh on Sundays for the sale of intoxicating liquor?". Well, the answer to that is: "That is why I came here to vote, for or against".

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I must ask my noble friend to ask a question. The House is in a good mood and is indulgent, and I think perhaps I might allow my noble friend Lady Phillips to answer that part of his speech that was in an interrogatory form.

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, I am sure that it would be proper to try to answer the noble Lord, since we have already had two "dissatisfied customers" to-day. The Home Office have written to the clerks of county councils and town clerks asking for the information which the noble Lord wishes to obtain. As soon as we receive this information it will be sent on to the noble Lord. I would remind him that it is for the clerks of county councils to decide upon the ballot paper inasmuch as this can be either bilingual or in only one language. I also have a ballot paper in my hand. It relates to the County of Carmarthen-shire, and I am bound to say that it seems quite clear that one is voting either for Sunday opening or against it.

LORD MAELOR

My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness to bring to the notice of her Department the desirability of having a voting paper in Welsh or in English, since Welsh is regarded in Wales as of equal importance to English? The voter should have a choice of voting paper, and not be subjected to the confusion which took place in this instance.

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord will recall that this point was debated when we discussed the Welsh Language Bill. The noble Lord will appreciate that it would be difficult if one had left over a large number of ballot papers. This is a much more difficult problem even than registration forms. I feel that when the noble Lord thinks the matter over he will feel that this would only add to the confusion.

LORD LEATHERLAND

My Lords, can my noble friend say whether the "considerable confusion in the voters' minds" existed in the "wet" counties or in the "dry" counties?

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, when we receive the necessary information, we shall no doubt be able to disentangle it.

VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, would not my noble friend agree that there would be a value in having the voting papers produced separately in two different languages, since it would then show which people wished to speak English and which of them wished to speak Welsh?

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, I suppose one can take that view. On the other hand, I think that it would open the door to more duplication. Since at present there is criticism in relation to spending too much money on forms, a matter which is often voiced in this House, it seems to me that this would involve extra expense.