§ 2.46 p.m.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether arrangements can be made, through some suitable organisation, to instruct university students in the rudiments of good manners, decent public behaviour and cleanly appearance, so that all these intelligent young people—who are largely subsidised by taxpayers and ratepayers—can command the public respect which most of them already deserve and enjoy.]
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, student conduct and discipline are matters for the individual universities, and it would not be appropriate for the Government to intervene directly. As my noble friend implies in his Question, it is the conduct of only a small minority of students which causes concern. This could, if unchecked, do harm to our system of higher education. The remedy, however, is to be found, not in any new organisational arrangements, but in the pressure of public opinion, particularly the opinion of the great majority of their contemporaries, to whom my noble friend refers. The university authorities are, I am sure, well aware of their own responsibilities in this respect.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, would my noble friend emphasise to her right honourable friend that it is generally realised that most students are hard-working men and women and that they probably deserve even more financial aid from the community than they get at present; and, furthermore, that the more serious thinking they do about politics, the better it will be for the country? But would she also agree that the present wave of violence by organised cells of subversives is too much like that of the British Fascists and the German Brownshirts in the thirties? While I ask the Government not to interfere with the universities in the control of their own domestic arrangements, will she consider what can be done to end this present campaign of violence, which is bringing 203 these students into disrepute and is a disgrace to a free country?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I will certainly convey to my right honourable friend the views expressed by the noble Lord. I am sure we should all appreciate the facts that he has brought before your Lordships' House, and I will let him know what my right honourable friend has to comment upon them.
§ LORD WILLISMy Lords, would not my noble friend agree that the way this Question is phrased, particularly with its remarks about "cleanliness" and further remarks about "Fascists", is hardly a good example of the good manners and moderation it calls for? Would she not also suggest to the Government that they might introduce a new clause into the Race Relations Act forbidding attacks by one generation on another to create bad feeling?
§ THE EARL OF CROMARTIEMy Lords, would not the Government agree that perhaps a little less publicity might be a great help in this case? Would they also not agree that in the last month we have seen more "poppycock" written in the so-called quality Press about youth than has ever been produced before?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I am not in a position to say that the Government would agree. If the noble Earl were to ask me personally outside, I should probably do so. But I will certainly, again, convey his remarks to my right honourable friend, and I hope that the appropriate authorities will take note of the comments made.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LINCOLNMy Lords, would the noble Lady like to remind the noble Lord who asked the Question that Socrates expressed views about young people a long time ago:
They have execrable manners, flout authority, have no respect for their elders. What awful creatures will they be when they grow up!
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, would not my noble friend agree that rag days by universities and these demonstrations that we are seeing, which are looked on so kindly by authorities, if they were carried out by young miners would result in their being brought before the courts for hooliganism?
§ LORD HUNTMy Lords, would not the noble Baroness agree that, while we accept the need to condemn and curb the excesses of the few, about which we should all agree, there is underlying most student demonstrations a deep sense of involvement in their own society and a deep concern about the problems of society outside the universities, in which they also feel involved and which no amount of educationist behaviour could curb? Would the noble Baroness not also agree that these feelings of students are largely frustrated by the fact that all students under 21 have no means of expressing their views on policy in a constitutional way?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, in reply to the noble Lord's last question, may I say that he would probably agree that this matter is being considered at the present time, and it may be changed. I feel it is a little difficult to comment on the contributions which came so rapidly from all sides of the House. Perhaps it is relevant to say that there is a little too much emphasis these days on rights and not enough emphasis on privileges and responsibilities.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that most of these youths are simply sublimating other instincts, and is not the answer to introduce more women students into the universities?
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESMy Lords, while I do not defend in any way students who make these rows, is it not a fact that discipline really comes from above, and we must ask the dons at universities also to think very carefully about how they make arrangements for modern youth? I hope the noble Lady will not let it go out that we put the whole blame on the students. There is really a big job to be done in organising universities in modern times so that people feel a sense of justice.
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, as your Lordships will know, and as I think I indicated in replying originally, which now seems a long time ago, this, of course, is not the province of Her Majesty's Government. I feel certain, however, that the remarks of your Lordships will be read by those people in charge in universities who are in a position to take note of these remarks.
VISCOUNT BARRINGTONMy Lords, without wishing to turn this into a debate, may I make one suggestion—
VISCOUNT BARRINGTONMay I ask whether the noble Lady would agree that, speaking as somebody who has received nothing but warm courtesy, kindness, and consideration from students of universities other than my own, I think there may be three possible explanations—
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, will the noble Lord wait while I try to help the House? Questions are designed to elucidate information for which the Government are responsible. It is rather difficult, and there will be quite strong reactions from the House, if we have these very long statements. It is unfortunate that the noble Viscount has come at the end of a rather large number of questions, and he has my sympathy.
THE EARL OF ARRANMy Lords, may I ask a very brief question? Will not Her Majesty's Government agree that these incidents reinforce the proposal put forward in the Lords debate on Youth, that some sort of National Service should be reintroduced for social purposes? Is there not a need for these misplaced youthful enthusiasms to be canalised in a useful way?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, in reply to the noble Earl, perhaps I may refer him to the reply given by my noble friend Lord Kennet in the debate on Youth. Her Majesty's Government are strongly opposed to compulsory service, but believe that the course they are now set on is the correct one; namely, to encourage voluntary service. And, of course, there is a great measure of success in this. I would merely say that I think "misplaced youthful enthusiasm" is rather an understatement for the throwing of red paint.