FALKLAND ISLANDS: TALKS WITH ARGENTINE GOVERNMENT (Hansard, 13 March 1968)

§ LORD VIVIAN
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD CHALFONT)
My Lords, the noble Lord will recall that in the statement to which he has referred Lord Caradon said: We are always ready to discuss these questions in a friendly and constructive spirit, but we must nevertheless apply the principles of consultation and consent. Lord Caradon's statement was followed by the adoption of Resolution 2065(XX) of the United Nations General Assembly, which called on the two Governments to find a peaceful solution to the problem. It was in this spirit that we entered into discussions with the Argentine Government which are still continuing. I can only add that, in these negotiations Her Majesty's Government are being guided by strong regard for the interests of the people of the Falkland Islands, and in any event will see that there is the fullest consultation with them.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is telling the House that the question of sovereignty of the Falkland Islands is under discussion?

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords I did not say that.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
I am asking.

§ LORD CHALFONT
I am afraid that I cannot add anything in that respect to my earlier reply. The talks with the Argentine Government are covering a wide range of subjects. They are confidential discussions between Governments, and I can add nothing to what I have said.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, does not the noble Lord realise that his answer leads us to the conclusion that sovereignty is being discussed?

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords, I cannot be responsible for the conclusions drawn. I am responsible only for the statements I make on behalf of the Government. I have said that these discussions are confidential and cover a wide range of subjects. I have reiterated statements made by Lord Caradon at the United Nations, and I cannot add to my Answer.

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, have the inhabitants of the Falkland Islands, or any of their representatives, been consulted about these conversations that are going on now? Have they been given any information about them?

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords, so far there has been no consultation, although they have been informed about the fact that these negotiations are continuing. I cannot add further to the nature of what these negotiations are.

§ LORD VIVIAN
My Lords, with respect to the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, may I ask him whether he is aware that the inhabitants of the Falkland Islands do not wish to belong to any other nation than the British nation, and that the two major islands are settled by 2,157 people who are of English and Scottish descent?

§ LORD CHALFONT
Yes, my Lords, I am aware of the facts, and I am aware of the wishes and feelings of the people of the Falkland Islands. I can only repeat what my noble friend Lord Caradon has already said. We shall apply the principles of consultation and consent.

§ LORD MERRIVALE
My Lords, as in 1965 the noble Lord, Lord Caradon, said before the General Assembly of United Nations that the wishes and interests of these people are paramount and that we, the British Government, have a duty to protect them, would the noble Lord consider holding a Referendum to find out exactly the wishes of the people there, as was done in Gibraltar, and act accordingly?

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords, I think it is too early yet in these proceedings to 208 comment on the suggestion of the noble Lord, although naturally the Government will bear the suggestion in mind. I fear I can say no more than that we are fully aware of, and fully alive to, the wishes and preoccupations of the Falkland Islanders, and we shall bear them in mind in these negotiations.

§ LORD MERRIVALE
My Lords, how is it that there are two yardsticks? It would seem to me that the situation of the people of the Falkland Islands is very similar to that of the people of Gibraltar. So if Her Majesty's Government were prepared to hold a Referendum to find out the exact wishes of the people of Gibraltar, why should they not do so to find out the exact wishes of the people of the Falkland Islands?

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords, I have not said that we will not. I have only said that so far I think it is too early to consider that step. There are, incidentally, enormous differences between the situation in Gibraltar and that in the Falkland Islands. I will not weary your Lordships with them at the moment. But I am not ruling out any course of action; I am only saying that I think all this is premature. We are engaged in delicate and confidential negotiations with another sovereign Government, and I believe it would not be in the interests of this House, of this country or of the people of the Falkland Islands to disclose now what those negotiations are about.

LORD SALTOUN
My Lords, may I ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are not hampered by the theory which appears to have been adopted by both Parties; namely, that the citizenship of any individual depends not in the least on the nature of his parentage, but only on the place where he happens to be born; so that of the children of two Scottish parents, one may be a native of South Africa and another a native of Britain, but the native of South Africa can be told that he may buy British citizenship, although both his parents are Scots?

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords, I think that question goes very wide of the original Question and the subject. I think there are considerations other than parentage, and one of those, I repeat, is the wishes of the people concerned.

§ LORD CONESFORD
My Lords, what right, if any, has the United Nations to interfere with our sovereignty over the Falkland Islands?

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords, the very fact of membership of the United Nations implies that the countries belonging to it derogate a certain proportion of their national sovereignty to it. This is the whole idea of the United Nations, and of course it has a right to give its opinion and to pass resolutions on international questions. To suggest otherwise is to fly in the face of reason.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, does the noble Lord consider it satisfactory that he is telling your Lordships that he refuses to tell Parliament whether or not he is bargaining away the sovereignty of a British colony, and that he refuses to consult the people of the country concerned?

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords, in the first place let me correct the noble Lord, Lord Carrington. I have not said that we refuse to consult the people concerned. On the contrary, I have said quite the reverse, that we shall consult the people concerned.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, does the noble Lord mean that he will consult the people of the Falkland Islands beforehand?

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords, yes, before—I give the promise that we shall consult the people concerned. Is the noble Lord not clear on that?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, I am not clear. If the Government are going to consult the people of the Falkland Islands before they give the sovereignty away, what are they discussing now?

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords, I am not talking about giving sovereignty away. I have said that in the spirit of the United Nations resolution we entered into negotiations with the Government of the Argentine, and in these negotiations we shall apply the principles of consultation and consent. In other words, of course we shall consult with the people of the Falkland Islands. I hope the House will acquit me of any discourtesy in this matter. What I am reluctant to do is to make a statement which, although 210 it is made in your Lordships' House is also made in public, about delicate confidential consultations which are now going on between two sovereign Governments.

§ LORD VIVIAN
My Lords, with great respect may I put one final question to the noble Lord? Does he appreciate that in August, 1964, the 2,000 inhabitants of the two larger islands of the Falkland Islands told the United Nations Committee of Twenty-Four on Colonialism that they wished to retain their association with Britain?

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords, of course I am aware of the expressed wishes of the people of the Falkland Islands, and we will take them fully into account in these negotiations.

§ VISCOUNT DILHORNE
My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for making it clear beyond doubt that the negotiations can be about sovereignty and nothing else, may I ask him whether his expression of opinion about the right of the United Nations also applies to Scotland and Wales, so that the United Nations can intervene in these matters?

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords I refuse to be drawn by the skill of the noble Viscount, and particularly into a discussion in regard to Welsh nationalists, but if he has drawn the conclusion from my remarks that he implies, that is his conclusion. It was not my statement.

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL
My Lords, can my noble friend tell me whether, during the 13 years of Conservative rule any Minister ever visited the Falkland Islands?

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords, I cannot give that information, but I think I am safe in inferring from the question of the noble Baroness that the answer is "None".

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, if the noble Lord was an inhabitant of the Falkland Islands, would he not feel deeply apprehensive when he learned that, without himself or anybody in the Islands having been consulted, the sovereignty of himself and his co-inhabitants was being discussed?

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords, this is an interesting question, but I cannot imagine a question more hypothetical.

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord whether he would not agree that it is not a hypothetical question for the inhabitants of the Falkland Islands?

§ LORD AIREDALE
My Lords, will the Minister give a pledge that the wishes of the people of these Islands will be the paramount consideration before anything is done?

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords, I am not prepared to go any further in regard to this matter than I did in my original Answer.

§ LORD BARNBY
My Lords, will the noble Lord indicate under what section of the United Nations Charter the sovereignty of Great Britain over the Falkland Islands is challenged?

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords, perhaps I should clear this point up in case anyone thinks that I am quoting from any particular Article of the Charter of the United Nations, to do with the Falkland Islands or their sovereignty. Possibly the remark I made was unwise. It was a philosophical remark about the fact that membership of the United Nations carries with it quite obviously some elements of giving up to the United Nations—to an international body—a part of something that might, in the past, have been regarded as being a matter of entirely national sovereignty. I suppose I should apologise to your Lordships for making a philosophical remark, but it does not suggest that the United Nations has any more right over the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands than it has over the sovereignty of any other country or any member of the United Nations.

§ BARONESS HORSBRUGH
My Lords, will the noble Lord agree that in the Charter of the United Nations—I cannot for the moment remember which Article—it is laid down that the United Nations has no right to interfere in the domestic and colonial affairs of countries?

§ LORD SHACKLETON
My Lords, I hope noble Lords will stop pressing my noble friend. We have gone on longer on this Question than I have ever known happen before. My noble friend has expressed a certain doubt as to the wisdom of the introduction of this particular 212 issue. If the noble Baroness wishes to pursue a particular point perhaps she would care to put down a further Question. There are 23 speakers in the debate which is to follow, and I am put in some slight difficulty, because I think it is quite wrong for the Leader of the House to have to intervene too much. But we are in a rather "student" mood to-day, and I think we might now contain ourselves.