§ 2.42 p.m.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government, in view of the statement in this House by the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs that the first and most important reasons for applying for Membership of the E.E.C. are political, whether they have any plan for a political rapprochement with the Six towards a common political destiny, and what initiatives have so far been taken to that end.]
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I would refer the noble Lord to a subsequent passage in the same speech, in which I said:
The Government therefore see the widening of the Common Market, to include ourselves and other Western European countries, as the means of bringing about this closer political unity".I would only add to that to-day that the essential first step is to join the European Communities.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his remarks, but in view of the state of things at the moment does he not think that Her Majesty's Government could take a greater initiative in this matter; that is, in the political field? In other words, could they not take a lead with regard to political consultations with the Six to see whether common guidelines could be achieved in, say, the field of defence, the field of aid to under-developed countries and the field of military construction and procurement; and, as a long-term aim, could not efforts be made to start political discussions with the Six with a view to ultimately achieving a common foreign policy?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, the noble Lord referred to the situation as it is now. The situation as it is now is that we have applied to join the European Communities, and the European Commission has delivered its opinion on that application and has said that negotiations should open. We now await the decision of the Council of Ministers, and 362 the Council of Ministers has a meeting on December 18. I therefore think the position is quite simple: we await their decision. In the meantime, perhaps I could refer the noble Lord to the words of my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary in the opening statement in this approach to the Common Market, which he made in The Hague on July 4. In that, he said among other things:
We believe that Europe can emerge as a community expressing its own point of view and exercising influence in world affairs, not only in the commercial and economic but also in the political and defence fields.I do not believe there can be anything clearer or more unequivocal than that.
§ LORD MERRIVALEYes, my Lords, I would agree. Indeed, I thank the noble Lord for reminding me of those remarks, which he sent me in reply to a Written Question I put to him earlier. But does he not think that Her Majesty's Government could show a greater lead, as we are not yet in the Community, in the light of of the fact that M. Jean Rey is here in London at the moment seeking arguments to support the Commission's claim that negotiations should start at the earliest possible moment, and also in light of M. Lipkowski's proposal last week in Strasbourg that this country should have a pre-membership status? In the light of those considerations, does the noble Lord not feel that Her Majesty's Government could take a lead in this matter?
Finally, may I ask the noble Lord why it is that the Prime Minister, in his sixteen-point reply last Wednesday to the remarks made the previous Monday by General de Gaulle, made no reference whatsoever to the contention or statement by the President of France that it was obvious that a complete transformation in this country was necessary before we could join the Continental countries?
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Speech!
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, it has always been the view of Her Majesty's Government that before becoming an effective member of the European Economic Communities we should have to be in a healthy economic position. That view has not changed. What we are talking about now is the possibility of entering into negotiations to join the Communities. We have made it clear to 363 our partners in the Communities that we should be prepared—indeed, we should like—to be associated with any discussion on political unity at the earliest possible moment, instead of waiting until the formal negotiations to join are complete. But we believe that all this kind of discussion ought to take place in the context of negotiations to join the Community on the application that now lies on the table with the Council of Ministers of the Six. Certainly we are prepared to discuss all these things in the context of those negotiations. I know that the noble Lord's intentions here are to be helpful, but I suggest to all noble Lords that we should wait until we have an answer from the Six on our application and for negotiations to begin. All these other things can then be discussed in the context of those negotiations.
§ LORD MITCHISONMy Lords, could my noble friend tell me whether a pre-member is a candidate who has been "blackballed"?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I do not want to get into any discussion about that sort of semantic definition. I can only say that we have applied according to Article 237 of the Treaty of Rome. It now requires a unanimous decision of the Six on our application. Whatever has happened in the meantime, that decision has not yet been given.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, could my noble friend say whether, in seeking the objective of political unity in the context of his own speech and that of the Foreign Secretary, it means that we hand over the sovereignty of our Parliament to a Federal Parliament of Europe?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, the extent to which political integration will eventually arrive in Europe is a matter for speculation, and long-term speculation at that. I would only remind my noble friend and your Lordships' House that in many respects already we accept a diminution of our national sovereignty—in our membership of NATO and in our membership of the United Nations. I believe it would be wrong to be too emotional about this issue. But certainly when we talk about handing over the sovereignty of our Parliament to some supranational Parliament we are talking 364 in very hypothetical and speculative terms indeed.
§ LORD BLYTONWould not my noble friend agree that we can leave NATO at six months' notice, whereas we cannot leave the Common Market—it is for ever?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I am not aware that we can leave NATO at six months' notice, and I believe that my noble friend, when he has checked his reference, will find that that is not so.
§ LORD BLYTONGeneral de Gaulle did.