BUSES IN CENTRAL LONDON (Hansard, 18 November 1965)

LORD INGLEWOOD
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD LINDGREN)
My Lords, I am informed by the London Transport Board that, while their schedules should provide a sufficient number of buses in Central London to meet the demand, traffic congestion and staff shortages do interfere with the regularity of services. Since the noble Lord's previous Question on this subject, the Greater London Council, at the Minister's invitation, set up a Working Party with the Metropolitan Police and the London Transport Board to consider ways in which further traffic management measures could help to improve the Board's bus services. Their report has been endorsed by the Greater London Council.

LORD INGLEWOOD
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. While I appreciate that traffic makes the keeping of timetables very difficult, will the noble Lord look again into this matter to see that the existing services really meet demand? One would think that if a public transport service in the centre of a great city were really to meet the needs of that city, buses should run more frequently than they do in Central London to-day.

§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH
My Lords, if this Committee has reported, would the noble Lord give us the benefit of the suggestions they have made for curing this problem, which, he has informed the House, the Greater London Council have endorsed?

§ LORD LINDGREN
My Lords, if I may, with due respect to the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, deal with the questions in reverse, I would say that the report to the Greater London Council was publicly discussed in the Council and there were Press reports, but I will try to get a copy of the report for the noble Lord. The report is in two sections. First of all, it gives short-term methods—control of parking, one-way streets, no right turns, clearways, et cetera. I am convinced, and so is the Minister, that the only long-term solution will depend on the restriction of traffic on roads where buses operate, but that is a very difficult problem and it is on this that the Working Party are at work, in conjunction with the Ministry.

THE EARL OF MANSFIELD
My Lords, are the Government aware that today, between 12 and 1, there was practically a complete cessation of traffic everywhere eastwards of Park Lane and a complete and utter jam? And will they take steps to try to improve the distribution and flow of traffic in Central London before they consider adding more buses to the number which already cause so much congestion?

§ LORD LINDGREN
My Lords, we are approaching Christmas, and whatever else Christmas does, it adds to traffic problems in London. But it is the increase in the motor car population—if I can use the word again—that causes the problem. If we are going to get the free flow of traffic which is essential for public transport, I am convinced that private cars will have to be restricted over many routes.

THE EARL OF MANSFIELD
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there was something like twelve buses, nose to tail, up Park Lane to-day, blocking all other traffic coming into or out of the side streets?

§ LORD LINDGREN
My Lords, no doubt the noble Earl would also have noticed that there were about a hundred cars with one person in each.

§ LORD MERRIVALE
My Lords, may I ask the Government what consideration is being given to the provision of traffic lanes exclusively reserved for buses and taxis, as in Paris, where they have proved a success? And if Her Majesty's Government are favourably considering the adoption of such a suggestion, would not the logical outcome of such a decision be that the police should be empowered to have on-the-spot fining of anyone contravening such regulations?

§ LORD LINDGREN
My Lords, in regard to the Paris experiments, I would say that this was part of what I meant by traffic restraint. Part of the plan would be to keep free lanes for bus traffic. In regard to the imposition of fines on the spot, the question ought to be directed more to my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor than to me.

LORD HAWKE
My Lords, will the noble Lord call the attention of the London Transport Board to the fact that their No. 11 buses, in spite of all the talk, still run in all too infrequent convoys?

§ LORD LINDGREN
Yes, my Lords. But may I take this opportunity of paying a compliment to the London bus driver? He works under extremely difficult operating conditions, in addition to which his conditions of service are very difficult indeed—early mornings, late nights, split turns—and in these traffic conditions he does an extremely good job courteously and to the consideration of other traffic.

LORD HAWKE
My Lords, with all respect, this particular point has nothing to do with the drivers. It concerns the inspectors, whose job it is to regulate the running of the buses.

§ LORD LINDGREN
My Lords, the obvious method of traffic control is the turn-round. If you turn round at Aldwych a bus which is going to Hackney Wick, then between Aldwych and Hackney Wick there will be a bus short.

§ LORD MERRIVALE
My Lords, as it is not possible for me to put a question to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, may I ask the noble Lord whether his Department would stress to the Home Office the advantage of having on-the-spot fines? Otherwise, if the 690 Government do adopt the system in use in Paris these regulations would be contravened if fines could not be imposed immediately when motorists and other road users contravened such regulations.

§ LORD LINDGREN
My Lords, that would involve changing the British attitude towards the imposition of a penalty for a wrong-doing. But I will certainly call the attention of the Home Office to it, and we could discuss it in relation to the Bill which is to be brought forward either towards the end of this year or early next year.

§ VISCOUNT DILHORNE
My Lords, does the noble Lord recognise that no question from this side has in any way criticised the conduct of bus drivers, who we agree have a difficult task to perform? I noted the noble Lord's remarks about bus drivers, but there has certainly been no criticism of their conduct from this side. At the same time, could the noble Lord give an assurance that greater steps will be taken, if possible, to ensure that these convoys, which do cause great irritation, are broken up into smaller fragments?

§ LORD LINDGREN
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Viscount, and I am more than sorry if I appeared to imply that the questions from the other side were critical of the bus driver. But I was given an opportunity to pay a compliment to the bus driver, and questions in regard to services naturally reflect to an extent on those who operate them. If a bus is late, the fellow one usually swears at is the conductor or the driver. We will certainly consider all the points that have been raised and do our best to implement some of them.

LORD SALTOUN
My Lords, may I ask whether it is not the case that all questions in this House are asked of Her Majesty's Government and it is entirely a matter of indifference whether they are answered by a noble Lord on the Government Front Bench or by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, provided that we get the right answer?

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONG FORD)
My Lords, the noble Lord is an outstanding authority on the Rules and conventions of the House and I entirely agree with what he has just said.