HL Deb 16 March 1965 vol 264 cc285-7

2.50 p.m.

VISCOUNT DILHORNE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the average number of persons in prison at any one time as a result of non-compliance with court orders for the discharge of debts.]

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, it is estimated that during 1963, the latest year for which complete figures are available, an average of about 200 persons committed by county courts, and about 260 civil process prisoners committed by magistrates' courts, would have been in custody at any one time.

VISCOUNT DILHORNE

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his Answer, may I ask whether he is aware that on March 3, when announcing the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the law and practice relating to the recovery of debts, the Minister without Portfolio stated that there were about 7,000 people in prison at any one time for non-payment of debts? Is the noble Lord further aware that this statement, which his Answer to-day shows was wholly incorrect, received the widest publicity and has not, so far as I am aware, been corrected until to-day? Does not the noble Lord regard it as regrettable that the facts were not accurately stated, and does he not think that here again, perhaps, an apology might be indicated?

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I was aware that on March 3, in another place, my honourable friend the Minister without Portfolio had made the statement to which the noble and learned Viscount referred. He did so in agreeing to a statement made by the honourable Member, Dame Joan Vickers. However, the noble and learned Viscount is quite wrong in thinking that the statement has not been corrected, because my right honourable friend the Home Secretary gave the correct figures the very next day in another place, in answering a question from the right honourable gentleman Mr. Henry Brooke. He further added the information that 7,047 persons committed by county courts and 3,669 civil process prisoners were committed to prison by magistrates' courts in 1963. It may well have been that the Minister without Portfolio had this in mind. The mistake has been corrected, but I am quite sure that he regrets —and certainly I do—that it was made.

VISCOUNT DILHORNE

My Lords, I am very glad to know that the mistake has been corrected, and I am grateful to the noble Lord for the information that he has given. Of course, the figure for the number of committal orders bears no relation to the numbers actually committed for contempt of court, for not complying with court orders.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble and learned Viscount. I hope he will agree with me that there are still too many people in prison on these orders, and that it is always advisable for Ministers to have their Portfolios with them.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, would the noble Lord break down these figures which he has given, and tell me what proportion are in relation to affiliation orders and maintenance orders?

LORD STONHAM

No, my Lords. I am afraid that I cannot give my noble friend that information, but I shall be glad to write to her on that point. I would say that the numbers relating to affiliation orders would be included in the total of 3,669 civil process prisoners committed by the magistrates' courts. It would be a number somewhat less than that. But I will certainly let my noble friend know what the answer is.

VISCOUNT DILHORNE

My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord would give the information in Hansard, as an Answer to a Written Question, as I think it would be information most useful to have.

LORD STONHAM

Yes, my Lords. I will certainly do that.