CONTROL OF TOXIC CHEMICALS (Hansard, 16 February 1965)

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR EDUCATION AND SCIENCE (LORD BOWDEN)
My Lords, I presume that the noble Earl is referring to the review of the present arrangement for the safe use of pesticides in agriculture and food storage on which the Advisory Committee on Pesticides and Other Toxic Chemicals are engaged at this moment at the request of the Government. The Committee are now considering evidence which has been submitted to them in response to their inquiries. The need for additional action, including legislation, will have to be considered by the Government in the light of their advice.

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH
My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask whether he would not agree with me that the control of toxic chemicals in the United States, for example, is considerably stricter than it is here, especially in view of the fact that all chemicals of this kind have to be officially approved before they are allowed to be put on the market, whereas in this country the voluntary nature of the control still permits the marketing of undesirable chemicals?

§ LORD BOWDEN
It is difficult for me to comment on the present state of the law in the United States. The impression I have is that it has been quite scandalously bad until fairly recently. Whether it has now been tightened up so as to make it stricter than ours is a matter upon which I am afraid I cannot comment. But I believe that the present method which we are adopting, of a very intensive inquiry, is likely to unearth the truth. Your Lordships will doubtless be glad to know that the Cook Committee, having set themselves up with four sub-committees, have now taken evidence from fifty or sixty different representative authorities, and the proposed technique for controlling toxic chemicals seems to me to have great merit.
May I repeat, as I have before in this place, that these chemicals, although notoriously the source of anxiety, are none the less an essential component of modern agriculture and that the productivity of the farmers of this country would be lamentably reduced and curtailed were they not available to them. If the noble Earl would let us have more information about the present state of the law in the United States which is known to him, I should be glad to consider it and commend it to the Cook Committee. The Government will doubtless take action, which may or may not involve legislation, when the Committee have reported. So by far the best way of dealing with the matter would be for the noble Earl himself to give the evidence to the Committee.

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH
Have the Cook Committee yet come to any conclusions on the present safety precautions? I should like to see some dynamic action on this matter now.

§ LORD BOWDEN
The noble Lord shares my own view. I spoke on the telephone to Sir James Cook this morning, and asked him when he was going to do something. He said that the Committee were working very hard. On the other hand, he emphasised that the problem is extremely complex and he did not think that he would be through with his inquiries at least for some time to come. But there is no lack of a sense of urgency. It is equally important that we should remember the dangers 389 inherent in these chemicals, as that we should remember, too, the great benefits which they confer on society, and should preserve a proper sense of proportion in our very reasonable anxieties about their abuse.

THE EARL OF HADDINGTON
My Lords, the noble Lord has given an almost identical answer to a practically identical question which I asked him several months ago. Not very much progress appears to have been made. Can he not do something to expedite the work of the Cook Committee? Does he not agree that it would be a far better safeguard both for the general community and to wild life if legislation took the place of this policy agreement, which cannot possibly be satisfactory?

§ LORD BOWDEN
The last time we discussed this matter was on December 2, which is not a very long time ago, and the Cook Committee began its deliberations only as recently as last July. They expect to take at least a year to complete their work. The best thing to do is to leave them to get on with it. If they decide, on the results of the evidence which is submitted to them—and a very great deal of evidence has been submitted to them—that a different system should be adopted, then the Government will doubtless consider it and embody their proposals in some form of legislation. But it would be unreasonable of us to chivvy them at this stage. Their Chairman, to whom I spoke this morning, assured me that they are working as hard as they can and emphasised yet again the very complex and extremely difficult inquiries in which they have to engage. After all, some of these toxicities become manifest only after a period of months or years, and it is an extremely difficult subject to analyse. Much as we may fear the consequences of delay, some delay is nevertheless inevitable.

§ LORD HURCOMB
My Lords, in view of the noble Lord's suggestion that there is a lack of appreciation of the value of these chemicals in agricultural use, may I assure him that that is not the case? And does he not agree that representations from the various bodies interested in wild life and the appearance of the countryside are legitimately concentrated on urging him to do something about stopping the use of 390 the particularly lethal and persistent chemicals, and finding some substitutes for them which will still meet the reasonable requirements of agriculture?

§ LORD BOWDEN
My Lords, of course this is the primary objective of the greater part of the research in this field which is now being undertaken.

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL
My Lords, is it not a fact that, while the Cook Committee are deliberating, new toxic chemicals are being put on the market? In view of the fact that my noble friend says that it takes months to decide whether these are dangerous, does not that in itself mean that the testing has not been adequate?

§ LORD BOWDEN
My Lords, I find it extremely hard to comment.

LORD SALTOUN
My Lords, I wrote to the Ministry some time ago about the fact that wild birds' eggs have been found infertile with noxious chemicals in them. Is it not the case that the official reply given was that it has not been actually proved that the presence of substances in the infertile eggs has been the cause of the infertility?

§ LORD BOWDEN
My Lords, it is perfectly possible, and this is among the many subjects which the Cook Committee are very vigorously investigating.

§ VISCOUNT DILHORNE
My Lords, is it not the case that new toxic materials can be put on the market and used without any check upon their use while this Committee are deliberating?

§ LORD BOWDEN
My Lords, I am afraid that we have not been able to adopt any policy other than that which the last Government used. If some change is to be made, I should be very glad if the noble and learned Viscount would submit any proposals he likes to the Cook Committee, which is responsible for making the appraisal on behalf of the Government.

§ VISCOUNT DILHORNE
My Lords, will the Government at least say that, if and when the Cook Committee report on all these toxic chemicals, including the new ones that are coming out from day to day, they will take action within 100 days?