HL Deb 16 February 1965 vol 263 cc391-4

2.44 p.m.

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have received any reports on the new nuclear power station to be built at Oyster Creek, New Jersey, in which it appears that a single-cycle boiling water plant is expected to generate electricity more cheaply than by conventional methods using cheap coal.]

THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM)

My Lords, the Government have seen reports which suggest that when it comes into operation in about 1967 this nuclear power station will generate electricity at low cost. These costs relate, however, to conditions in the United States. Adequate information about the relative costs of this and other types of nuclear power station in British conditions and using British assumptions will not be available until later in the year, when the results of the Central Electricity Generating Board's inquiry for tenders for the first station in the second nuclear power programme have been assessed.

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask him whether he is also aware that a possibly even more economic plant is to be built at Dresden, in Illinois; and that the capital cost of this very large reactor, which is a 755-megawatt station, is quoted by the American Embassy here as being as low as that at Oyster Creek. Secondly, is the noble Lord aware that, acording to an estimate in the Financial Times of, I think, only last Thursday, the cost of electricity from this facility would be between 5 and 10 per cent. less than from new plants using coal as fuel? Finally, can the noble Lord tell me when he thinks that nuclear power will be economic for the generation of electricity in this country?

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, we are of course aware that a 755-megawatt boiling water reactor plant is being built at Dresden, Illinois, for the Commonwealth Edison Company. We are aware, also, of the claims made for that plant, some of which apparently are in dispute in the United States. We feel that it would be premature for us to base conclusions on claims for a plant which has not yet been built, and therefore has not been tried out.

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH

My Lords, bearing in mind the unanimity of opinion in the United States (and I think I must slightly disagree with the noble Lord in what he has just said: there is unanimity of opinion that there is something of a breakthrough), would he not agree that one of the factors leading to this development is the competition, in both fuels and plant equipment, which exists under the free-enterprise system in the United States? Am I not also right in thinking that representatives of the Atomic Energy Authority and the Central Electricity Generating Board are now in the United States? I wonder whether they have yet reported on these developments and come to any conclusions about them.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right in saying that representatives of the C.E.G.B. and the A.E.A. are at present in the United States, but we have not yet received a report from them. I cannot accept what the noble Lord says about the unanimity of opinion in the United States; because, as he is doubtless aware, an article in the New Scientist on the economic nuclear power at Oyster Creek, written by the proposed manager of that undertaking, says that in the United States there are differences of opinion as to the degree of competitiveness which has been reached. If we based our assumptions now on something which is still not proved, we should be well and truly "up the creek" ourselves.

LORD GEDDES OF EPSOM

My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the cost of generating electricity is not the only factor which should be taken into consideration in determining whether the Generating Board in Great Britain should buy American or British?

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, of course I entirely agree with my noble friend. I would add that not only are the assumptions in this country totally different from those in the States, but also that the estimates of costs which have been compiled in the States do not include many items of costs which the Central Electricity Generating Board would include here in our own calculations.

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, can the noble Lord give an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will follow very closely these developments in the United States? Would he also agree that at the moment, while capital costs for making coal-fired generating plants are higher than those for atomic energy, developments such as we have seen in the United States may well in time reduce those capital costs?

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I think that the noble Earl put his question the wrong way round. I understood him to say that capital costs for coal-fired plant were higher at present than for plant using nuclear energy. In fact, the position at present is the other way round, although the noble Earl may be right in saying that it may be different in the future. But is there any need to give an assurance on the question of following these developments? They are, of course, followed with the very closest attention in my right honourable friend's Department. Indeed, there will be an opportunity for the C.E.G.B. to consider the boiling water reactors that we are now discussing, when they consider the tenders which have now been received.

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. If I said that the coal-fired ones were more expensive than the atomic energy ones, I meant the other way round.

LORD BLYTON

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the argument across the Floor is the absolute opposite to what is being argued in the aircraft industry?

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, my noble friend may be right. I find it difficult enough to answer all the questions on the power industry in this country, and I should be reluctant to assume responsibility for questions on the power industry in the United States and for questions connected with the Air Ministry.

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH

My Lords, bearing in mind that many people hope it will not be necessary for us to buy American reactors, can the noble Lord say when he believes British firms will be able to build equally economic reactors in this country?

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I should have thought that we did not have to wait for that position, but I shall know very much more about it in the summer, when it is hoped that the C.E.G.B. will have decided on the first reactor for the second nuclear power programme. Doubtless British firms will then have an opportunity of doing what is being done in the United States, though perhaps doing it better.