§ 3.22 p.m.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of numerous recent shooting incidents, they will impose 1248 more stringent regulations as to the possession of firearms, and take steps to see that these are effectively enforced.]
§ THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM)My Lords, my right honourable friend is examining as a matter of urgency, in consultation with chief officers of police, the adequacy of the present legislation affecting firearms, and he hopes to make a statement at an early date.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend for his Answer and look forward eagerly to the statement. Is the Minister aware that an Assistant Commissioner of Police in the Metropolis is reported to have said recently that a shot-gun is part of the average adult Englishman's equipment? And will my noble friend give an assurance in the strongest possible terms that that is not the view of Her Majesty's Government?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, if an Assistant Commissioner made the remark attributed to him, it is a view of his that I do not share, because I understand that there are something like half-a-million shot-guns in the country and rather more than 20 million Englishmen: one would not expect that only 2½ per cent. of Englishmen are average.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, even if a shot-gun is part of the equipment of the average Englishman, would the noble Lord not agree that if we are required, rightly, by the Government to possess a licence in order to sell a packet of cigarettes, a pint of beer or a bowl of goldfish, it is not unreasonable to ask us also to possess a licence in order to sell a shot-gun?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, this is a matter which is, of course, receiving the attention of my right honourable friend.
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDMy Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that a great number of the firearms used in shooting incidents are, of course, stolen? Perhaps the police could help and advise gunmakers on how to protect their premises from raids.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, it is the case, as the noble Viscount says, that many of the offences which have caused public concern in recent months have been committed with stolen firearms. The noble Viscount will also be aware that before a firearms dealer can sell his wares he must first of all be registered, and, secondly, he must keep a register of all sales. But this, again, is a matter about which my right honourable friend is considering whether further steps can be taken.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, will the noble Lord not agree that firearms would not be so easily stolen if they were not so readily available? Will he take steps to put a stop on the sale of firearms to the general public altogether and to confine them to restricted channels, such as the police or public authorities, who should allow sales only to persons who can prove bona fide need?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, Part I of the Firearms Act, 1937, provides that any person possessing firearms or ammunition must have a firearm certificate issued by the Chief Officer of Police. The Home Office insists upon very strict enforcement of the law in this respect. But if my noble friend has information regarding any cases where there is reason to believe that the regulations are not being properly carried out, I shall be glad to have it and put it before my right honourable friend.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, will the noble Lord give an assurance that in any future consideration that Her Majesty's Government may give to legislation the highest possible priority will be given to protection of the public?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, that, of course, is always the duty of the Home Office and it is a consideration foremost in the mind of my right honourable friend.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLLMy Lords, is it not the case that the present regulations cover only rifles and what the noble Lord's noble friend wishes them to cover as well is shot-guns? Would it not be possible to control the sale of shotgun ammunition in the same way as rifle ammunition is controlled at the moment?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, everything, of course, is possible. The noble Duke is not right in saying that only rifles are covered by Part I of the Firearms Act, although he would be right in saying that shot-guns are not included in Part I if they are more than 20 inches long. This again, plus matters which noble Lords have not yet mentioned, are among the matters being urgently considered now and about which we hope to make a statement quite soon.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the modern air rifle is a much more dangerous weapon than air rifles of some years ago, and that air rifles can be purchased without a certificate by boys of 14?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, my noble friend is in error there. It is an offence for anyone under the age of 17 to purchase an air rifle; it is an offence to sell an air rifle to anyone under the age of 17; it is an offence to give an air rifle to anyone under the age of 14; it is an offence for an air rifle to be carried by any person under the age of 17 unless it is in a case; and it is an offence for a child under 14 to fire an air rifle unless he is in the presence of an adult or in a room and unable to fire outside. We do feel that since the Air Guns and Shot Guns, &c., Act, 1962, was passed there has been a distinct improvement in the situation, which was admittedly very dangerous.
§ LORD SWANSEAMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that, whatever restrictions are placed on the acquisition of firearms and shot-guns, they would not hinder criminals from acquiring them through their usual underground channels? Surely the proper course is to increase the existing penalties.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, that, of course, is the first and most obvious thing which is being considered by my right honourable friend.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, as the questioning all seems to be one way, perhaps the noble Lord will allow me to ask him whether he will not also remind his right honourable friend that pigeons and grey squirrels and many other things are a real menace to our 1251 well-being in this country and that in many cases a shot-gun is almost our only weapon against them.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I will certainly bear in mind what the noble Lord has said, but I can think of many things and objects which are a menace but for which I would not recommend the use of a shot-gun.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, will the noble Lord ask his right honourable friend, in the consideration which he is rightly giving to this matter, when he comes nearer his conclusions, which may well, and again probably rightly, end up in tighter control of the acquisition of firearms, to consider the point of not making it so stringent that it becomes almost unreasonably difficult to obtain a firearm in cases of wholly legitimate need?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, that point I will certainly bring to the notice of my right honourable friend, who has it already well in mind. The noble Lord will, however, realise that if there are half-a-million shot-guns in use it would be an enormous administrative problem if we were to have stringent controls in all cases.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, would it be possible for the Government to make these recommendations available to the House before we debate the Second Reading of the Murder (Abolition of Death Penalty) Bill in the near future.
§ LORD STONHAMI cannot, of course, be bound by a date, but I am confident that the intentions of my right honourable friend will be known long before we debate that Bill.