§ 2.37 p.m.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what were the numbers of emigrants from the United Kingdom and of immigrants to the United Kingdom during the last twelve months for which figures are available.]
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, no comprehensive figures are collected of migrants into or out of the United Kingdom. A sample passenger survey conducted by the Central Office of Information suggests that in 1963 230,000 persons left the United Kingdom with the avowed intention of settling overseas for at least a year and that the corresponding number of intending long-term immigrants was 172,000. But these figures do not include movement between the United Kingdom and the Irish Republic and, taking that and a number of other factors into account, the Registrar General estimates that in 1963 255,000 persons left the population of the United Kingdom for other countries, and 265,000 immigrants and repatriates came here.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that very full reply, may I ask him whether these figures are not rather serious, in view of the Ministry of Labour's figures this morning showing the shortage of labour in this country? Are there not among the emigrants many skilled workers and technicians who this country badly needs, and is not the margin against the emigrants serious from the point of view of maintaining labour supplies for our expanding economy?
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, that has some truth in it. On the other hand, I am sure that the noble Lord will appreciate that there are many other factors that have to be taken into account. A proper analysis and breakdown of these figures would disclose what proportions of the emigrants and immigrants are able-bodied workers, with or without skills, and what proportion are women and children. There are also other factors, including the question of accommodation and that of the centralisation or diffusion of immigrants. So while I agree there is some substance in what the noble Lord has said, I think that these other factors have to be sought after and properly considered. May I add that these two sets of figures are not strictly comparable, the main difference between them arising from the basis of geographical classification. If the noble Lord can suggest anything which would lead to the fuller information he desires, I can assure him that every effort will be made to secure that information.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord.
§ BARONESS HORSBRUGHMy Lords, are we to take it from the noble Lord's Answer that Her Majesty's Government do not consider any women as able-bodied workers?
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, quite a number of women are certainly very able-bodied indeed, but I think that the noble Lady will admit that there are a good many women whose occupation is mainly looking after children and elderly people, and although they may be able-bodied in one particular sense they are not so in the sense employed here.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, may I ask whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to try, even on the rough basis of the figures which they now have, to make some sort of analysis to show the number of heads of families and dependants among both emigrants and immigrants, or will that be too difficult?
§ LORD SORENSENOf course, my Lords, that is highly desirable, but I have no information about what the Government intend to do about a closer analysis of these figures. I will certainly convey the contents of the noble Lord's remarks to my right honourable friend.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, is it not a fact that until we get these figures nothing will have any effect except controlling the total number of immigrants? That seems to me the only solution to the difficulty which the noble Lord has exposed.
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, I appreciate the desire of the noble Lord and other noble Lords who have intervened to obtain full information, not only of a statistical character but also of a human character, and I will convey the observations of the noble Lords to my right honourable friend the Minister.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, do not the figures of the Ministry show that a large number of those who have come into this country are women and families of men who are already here; and is that not a very healthy contribution towards their life in this country?
§ LORD SORENSENYes, my Lords. I think it is true that a large proportion of the immigrants who came last year were women and children, many of whom are not able-bodied, in the sense that originally we meant. That has some relevance, also, to the noble Lord's other observation. It is, of course, true that it is highly desirable that the women and children of men who are already here as immigrants should come to join them.
§ THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGHMy Lords, is it not desirable that we should obtain accurate figures of immigration to this country from Ireland?
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, I agree that it is desirable. All one can do is to stress that this information is needed and to encourage those responsible to secure the information.
§ LORD BRECONMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the Government have any plans to keep those skilled workers here and not let them emigrate abroad and perhaps bring in a great deal of unskilled labour, particularly thinking at the present moment about the aircraft industry?
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, I have no information about that. I shall have to consult my right honourable friend.
§ LORD FERRIERMy Lords, as the necessity for basing these figures on sampling arises from the fact that there 501 is no regulation under which passengers by air must be registered as immigrants, may I ask the noble Lord whether the Government will give further consideration to the recommendation of the Migration Board (and I am a member of the Board) that the same conditions should apply to passengers by air as apply to passengers by sea, so that accurate figures can be arrived at for immigrants and emigrants by air? I have one other question, which arises out of what the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, said. In view of the fact that the definition of "emigrants" or "immigrants" is those going abroad or coming here for one year or more, is it not a fact that a large number of emigrants, so registered, from this country are technicians and experts who are going abroad for, perhaps, more than one year, but are in no respect emigrants who are changing their domicile?
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, I think there is some substance in what the noble Lord has said. Again I will convey these observations to my right honourable friend. There is of course this arbitrary criterion as to who is and who is not a migrant laid down to cover those who are intending long-term migration. I agree that the whole matter is shrouded with a certain amount of ambiguity, and I only hope that the questions asked and the replies given will lead to clarification of the position.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, will my noble friend say whether he thinks it is in the interests of the under-developed countries, where there is a high degree of illiteracy, to encourage skilled and professional people to leave them?
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, with the greatest deference and respect to the noble Lady, I think this ranges into the area of opinion, on which it is not desirable for me to pronounce at the moment.